Iran to buy 24 jet fighters from China

[rock45]

* I don't agree with how he story is written the technology for the base J-10 program was taken most likely from the Lavi that I can believe. They make it sound like Israel help design the current J-10 some twenty years later that doesn't ring true to me. Most of China aircraft producing know how comes from kits supplied by Russia and built off of Russian technology. They are fast learners like the Russia radar they copied in under three years and went operational with it. I'm sure Pakistan help in great detail with F-16 information both country's share in many programs together including a missile program. The ws10 engine used in and for the future for this little hot rod is a copy of a AL-31 Russian engine. Imagine a single powerful Flanker engine with all that thrust put into a lighter and smaller frame should be a hot rod. I know the systems built into the aircraft are unknown and can make or break this J-10. On paper they look better then any Mig-21 clone China ever produced. I posted this article for two reasons: First it's aviation related, 2nd I always knew the Iranian - Chinese tech transfer existed now it surfaces. Watch China get J-10s before Pakistan just my two cent.


Iran to buy 24 jet fighters from China
Iran has signed a deal with China to buy two squadrons of J-10 fighter planes that are based on Israeli technology, the Russian news agency Novosti reported yesterday.

The 24 aircraft are based on technology and components provided to China by Israel following the cancellation of the Lavi project in the mid-1980s. The engines of the J-10 are Russian-made.

The total cost of the planes is estimated at $1 billion, and deliveries are expected between 2008 and 2010.

The estimated operational range of the aircraft, with external fuel tanks, is 3,000 kilometers, which means Israel falls within their radius of operation.

During the 1980s, Israel Aircraft Industries, along with U.S. firms, developed a multi-role aircraft that was considered the most advanced of its type at the time.

Following the development of a prototype, the Reagan administration stopped funding, bringing about the cancellation of the joint project.

Full story
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/916335.html

 

[mmarsh]

This is exactly why I don't support Israel

1. We developed a fighter for them that was paid for using US taxpayer money and from which is based on US technology.

2. The very first thing they do is say "we don't want it" and without even asking us sell the fighter's plans to the Chinese whom are eager to get their hands on US aviation blueprints.

3. The Chinese a unfriendly nation to the US, with their panache for copying everything they can get their hands on, use the blueprints to design their latest aircraft the J-8 and J-10.

4. Then the Chinese sell the J-10 to Iran, a country almost at war with the US and Israel.

The Isrealis did the same thing with the Python-3 (influenced from the US sidewinder). Well I certainly hope the Iranians bomb Tel Aviv as a reminder to the Isrealis about what happens when you screw your friends.

 

[rock45]

basically

I agree with basically all the things you mention but not on number two.

They invested a lot of money and time and President Regan under pressure from US aircraft makers said kill the project. Both sides after while knew it was a good design but couldn't be allowed to finished. We both know the big money and power was behind it at first and behind it to end it. They went elsewhere to sell it since we (US Government) killed it on them. I not saying it was right going to China don't get me wrong but from my understanding we jerk them around near the end basically 'sorry but we change our minds". Sorry you invested to much but our companies don't want this product made, good try and have a nice day. I would like to think what was shown to the Chinese was a scale down design remember China and Russia were friendly at the time. Russia still supplies most Israel's enemies at that time with arms so it's not like they were giving them cutting edge here. And the fact that it took 20 plus years for China to do something with it kind of shows me it wasn't the best. At that time period what are we talking about at best Block-15/20 or in that area? Pakistan had the same in fact Pakistan's Vipers had the first ever kill with the Falcon. This is China getting better after 30 years in the aircraft industry and using bought, stolen, and learned tech. Like everybody did and currently does.

Many countries copy missiles Magic, AA-11, there a long list. I'm trying to look it up now I'm not sure if the US sidewinder was the first in it's class. I have 1954 in head and testing but I'll find it.

# 4 The United States, England, France, Russia, and others have sold different equipment over the years to China, all has been copied. The Chinese JH-7 have British former F-4 engines and have 7 tons payloads. The list goes on US and the French helicopter makers didn't fair well dealing with them either just look at the Chinese helicopter program.

I still think it was wrong dealing with the Chinese but I also think they learn as much or more from real Pakistan's F-16s and the specs and info provided. The US deal with the Saudi 's and they back door support to every bad group under the sun but we turn out backs on that. I don't know why we (government) do certain things or allow certain things but I know there's a three sides to most. :cheers:

 

[mmarsh]

Your forgetting that before Reagan pulled the plug the Isrealis agreed to build the Lavi under License in Israel. They discovered later they couldn't afford to do so they killed the project. Thats fine. But its what came next that bugs me. They could have either A) filed the plans in some deep archive. B) Destroyed them.

Instead they chose C) Sell them without consulting the US whom they knew would have said no. They deliberately went behind our backs. We should have ended their military funding right then and there.

As for #4 there is a difference. The British, French and Russians all sold THEIR equipment to the Chinese. It was a bad decision but it least it was their property and not someone else's. But with the Lavi the Isrealis sold the USA's property, without our permission. It would have been wrong if they sold it to Iceland, but on top of it to China of all places. They might as well sold it to the Soviet Union. We designed the Lavi for Isreal, not for China.

My biggest problem with Isreal is that they use us. They think because AIPAC controls Washington they can do whatever they want without consequence. Attack us, spy on us (twice), sell our equipment to enemies, etc.

Thats a pretty nasty attitude to a country that gives Isreal $11 Billion annually and it shows the respect they have for us. i.e NONE.

 

[rock45]

Time line

To be honest to don't know the complete time line to this but I'll try to explain how I thought it went down. I may be wrong please correct me if I am I can always learn.

1.The project idea and base was Israeli (long at the design)
2.They brought the product to us to look over and get involved. The reason because they couldn't produce the engine and other key parts. They basically needed US to build this fighter because they couldn't on there own. Production lines, funding remember there surround by enemies and almost always in a state of war, that's costly for a small country.
3. We agreed and a joint project was created with both sides adding to the project and learning from it.
4. This is the grey area for me and by the way I'm not Jewish. It seems the design was as good or maybe better then the current Falcon at the time. The big wigs at Lockheed and other powerful aircraft and other different US companies involved in aircraft and weapons systems industry at the time weren't behind it, and killed it. I'm sure you realized how many people, company CEO's, government, and others have to be pleased to get something done. Look at the F-20 program look how the big wigs weren't behind that and a perfectly good aircraft was killed off. These same big wigs at Lockheed more or less told the air force support the F-16 and let this F-20 program die off. It's business and politics behind these big decisions they get the right parts of Congress behind them and things get done the way they want them. Lockheed is very powerful even more so then to day. This was an outside project, where all of there little guys weren't getting a piece. This aircraft if produced would have went up directly against F-16s and maybe the F-15s in certain markets and that just couldn't be allowed to happen. Do you realized how many companies would be cut out of the loop. You don't know we may have learn something from the project too and Lockheed and now Boeing isn't going announce that in public. Judging from the Israeli version of the F-15I and F-16I and the different radar's and systems in them they might have been on to something at that time and knew it.

I just felt it was more of there project and idea to begin with and they needed our money and support to get it done. The end result would have been a much smaller cut for US aircraft makers and shared profits so to me it was killed off for business and politics reasons.
I do agree with a lot of what you said and listed :horsie:

If I remember correctly we threaten to pull funding part of the that $11 Billion annually and/or hold F-16 deliveries. Then we told them no you can't upgrade Venezuela's Viper fleet, they lost big time money on that one. Then maybe we came down harder on few Kfir sales because of out J-79 engine in them, we mess with there heads a little. The late 80s were a long time ago I didn't follow things then the way I do now its different. Please correct me if I got something wrong or I'm off track on some of the issues.

The spying thing always troubled me