Germany lost the war in 1940 - Page 6




 
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March 4th, 2012  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BritinAfrica

I was totally unaware of the last three.

The Battle of Britain flight has at least kept a few WW2 aircraft in the air, but there are still too many omission's, such as the Mosquito, the Wellington, Halifax and Sterling.
HMS Alliance was almost a post war submarine, it was launched in July 1945 but not commissioned until early 1947.

As for Mosquito's it still amazes me when I look at the photo's of RNZAF ones being sold as firewood, basically they stripped them and sold off the shells, however as I mentioned in another thread the restoration group I joined has a pair of the engines they recovered from a pit and one day who knows maybe they will get one back in the air.
March 4th, 2012  
Trooper1854
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BritinAfrica
The point is Trooper, the Vulcan for example should be kept in the air by government grants, not relying on public donations.

There shouldn't be just replica's of aircraft, there should be airworthy examples. The only Wellington that comes to mind is one that pancaked into a Scottish Loch, yes she was recovered but only being rebuilt to static display standard.

I must admit I am highly chuffed that another Lancaster is being made airworthy.

Once again though, I firmly believe that all of these projects should be funded by government including the Mosquito's.
The goverment are more interested in lining their own pockets rather than putting money into these worthy causes, unfortunately But they are happy to bask in the reflected glorry of the hard work of the private individuals
I am just glad that their are so many people in the country who have such a passion for the past that these projects exist.
And I am proud to say I have contributed to a number of local projects.

The Wellington Cosford is restoring, is a complete airframe previously on display at Hendon. This is as well as the one pulled out of Loch Ness.
Another thing that needs to be remembered, is that these machines were never meant to last.
Our heavy bombers had the second highest casualty rate of any fighting unit in the war, the U-Boat crews have that dubious distinction.
The Stirlings were quickly withdrawn from bombing duties as the Lancaster became available. The Stirlings were moved to transport duties and the production was wound down, 2,383 were built compared to 7,377 Lancasters.
So by the end of the war their role as a bomber was largely forgotten and no one thought "lets stick one in a museum"
After they finished filming "The Dambusters" the five Lancasters used in the film were flown to a maintenance unit for scrapping!
They had just made a film of the contribution they, and their crews had made to the war, and then scrapped them.
Then maybe the feeling was "Lets move on, we need domestic goods and we want to forget the war" now, people are scouring the world for wrecks to restore and when none are suitable for this, they will build from scratch.
There is a Hallifax III in a museumin the UK http://www.yorkshireairmuseum.org/. I think its part original, part replica.
There is one in Canada, and Hendon has a wreck of one.
As the Hallifax was second fiddle to the Lancaster, few people out side the crews, know of them. I have seen documentaries using film of Hallifaxs and referring to them as Lancasters!
March 4th, 2012  
BritinBritain
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trooper1854
The goverment are more interested in lining their own pockets rather than putting money into these worthy causes, unfortunately But they are happy to bask in the reflected glorry of the hard work of the private individuals
Tell me about it, it really pisses me off big time.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Trooper1854
I am just glad that their are so many people in the country who have such a passion for the past that these projects exist.
And I am proud to say I have contributed to a number of local projects.

The Wellington Cosford is restoring, is a complete airframe previously on display at Hendon. This is as well as the one pulled out of Loch Ness.
Another thing that needs to be remembered, is that these machines were never meant to last.
I was stationed at Hendon when the museum was being built, then it was just a mud pile. Another famous station reduced to a shadow of it's former self, that also pisses me off. I got my discharge from Hendon. Well done for helping with local projects.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Trooper1854
Our heavy bombers had the second highest casualty rate of any fighting unit in the war, the U-Boat crews have that dubious distinction.
55,000 aircrew died if my memory is correct, that horrendous losses. I also believe the US 8th Air Force lost about the same. Its so damn sad that so many young men lost their lives, on both sides.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Trooper1854
The Stirlings were quickly withdrawn from bombing duties as the Lancaster became available. The Stirlings were moved to transport duties and the production was wound down, 2,383 were built compared to 7,377 Lancasters.
So by the end of the war their role as a bomber was largely forgotten and no one thought "lets stick one in a museum"
After they finished filming "The Dambusters" the five Lancasters used in the film were flown to a maintenance unit for scrapping!
They had just made a film of the contribution they, and their crews had made to the war, and then scrapped them.
Then maybe the feeling was "Lets move on, we need domestic goods and we want to forget the war" now, people are scouring the world for wrecks to restore and when none are suitable for this, they will build from scratch.
There is a Hallifax III in a museumin the UK http://www.yorkshireairmuseum.org/. I think its part original, part replica.
There is one in Canada, and Hendon has a wreck of one.
As the Hallifax was second fiddle to the Lancaster, few people out side the crews, know of them. I have seen documentaries using film of Hallifaxs and referring to them as Lancasters!
The Halifax was a very good aircraft but had a smaller bomb load then the Lancaster, 13,000 pounds as opposed to 20,000 pounds for the Lancaster. However, the Halifax gave wonderful service in the RAF but also other air forces around the world.

I suppose the Lancaster v Halifax is the same as Spitfire v Hurricane debate. German aircrew shot down always claimed they were shot down by a Spitfire, when in fact they had been shot down by Hurricanes. Hurricane pilots called it (quite rightly) "Spitfire snobbery."

Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
HMS Alliance was almost a post war submarine, it was launched in July 1945 but not commissioned until early 1947.

As for Mosquito's it still amazes me when I look at the photo's of RNZAF ones being sold as firewood, basically they stripped them and sold off the shells, however as I mentioned in another thread the restoration group I joined has a pair of the engines they recovered from a pit and one day who knows maybe they will get one back in the air.
Thanks for the info Monty.

Well done for joining a restoration group, I hope you chaps do manage to get one airworthy.

I don't think there is anything more sad then seeing famous aircraft on the scrap heap.
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March 4th, 2012  
Trooper1854
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BritinAfrica
I don't think there is anything more sad then seeing famous aircraft on the scrap heap.
On the A1 at Newark there is a large scrap yard.
When the Lightning went out of service, the RAF flogged them off to the highest bidder and this place got one.
The Lightning sat there for years, rotting away and despite many offers from museums and private collectors, he wouldn't sell until the thing rotted away and was finaly scrapped
These scrap dealers can out bid museums and collectors and to be honest, the value of these things once broken down can't be that much.

We have a local farmer who has a Stalwart and a Saladin on his property, again rotting away. i know offers have been made by AFV collectors, but he refuses to sell.
I've watched these two vechiles decompose over years. its so sad.
March 4th, 2012  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BritinAfrica
Thanks for the info Monty.

Well done for joining a restoration group, I hope you chaps do manage to get one airworthy.

I don't think there is anything more sad then seeing famous aircraft on the scrap heap.
There are approximately 30 Mosquito's being restored Worldwide including the one being done locally.

http://www.mossie.org/articles/CWD/Mos.html


http://www.mossie.org/Mosquito_loc.htm

http://tvnz.co.nz/close-up/mosquito-...eo?vid=2961440
March 5th, 2012  
BritinBritain
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
There are approximately 30 Mosquito's being restored Worldwide including the one being done locally.

http://www.mossie.org/articles/CWD/Mos.html


http://www.mossie.org/Mosquito_loc.htm

http://tvnz.co.nz/close-up/mosquito-...eo?vid=2961440
If I remember correctly there was a restoration bloke in Aussie, who sends his crew around the world to look for crashed or good condition aircraft for clients. Once he has found the aircraft he gets it back into airworthy condition.

I remember him saying the biggest problem with the Mosquito they don't do too well in humid countries, as the wood and the glue rots badly.

I see that there is one at Duxford that wasn't there when I was there last in 1993. I hope they get the old girl airworthy, even if she was only a target tower.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trooper1854
On the A1 at Newark there is a large scrap yard.
When the Lightning went out of service, the RAF flogged them off to the highest bidder and this place got one.
The Lightning sat there for years, rotting away and despite many offers from museums and private collectors, he wouldn't sell until the thing rotted away and was finaly scrapped
These scrap dealers can out bid museums and collectors and to be honest, the value of these things once broken down can't be that much.

We have a local farmer who has a Stalwart and a Saladin on his property, again rotting away. i know offers have been made by AFV collectors, but he refuses to sell.
I've watched these two vechiles decompose over years. its so sad.
There was a bloke here who had a Saracen, the ANC nearly had a heart attack. I haven't seen it for quite awhile.

Jeremy Clarkson had a Lightning in his garden, wasn't he told by the local council to get rid of it?

When the aeroplane arrives his missus was bitching, he retorted along the lines of, "These aircraft and their pilots stopped the Russians in their tracks."

I forget how much a Lightning weighs now, but take away her engines and there's not much left. But it is a damn shame they are left to rot.

At least here at Thunder City Lightning's, Hunters and Buccaneers kept airworthy and flown quite often. I have heard that Thunder City have caused a little bit of concern for the ANC though, they say no one knows where the Aden gun packs are for the Hunters. The gun packs were delivered with the aircraft, but suddenly vanished.

Nice one.
March 5th, 2012  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BritinAfrica
If I remember correctly there was a restoration bloke in Aussie, who sends his crew around the world to look for crashed or good condition aircraft for clients. Once he has found the aircraft he gets it back into airworthy condition.

I remember him saying the biggest problem with the Mosquito they don't do too well in humid countries, as the wood and the glue rots badly.

I see that there is one at Duxford that wasn't there when I was there last in 1993. I hope they get the old girl airworthy, even if she was only a target tower.
Here is information on the company doing the restoration and a few of their other projects.

http://www.warbirdrestoration.co.nz/
March 5th, 2012  
LeEnfield
 
 
I think that any one that can remember the war, can remember all the ,military equipment that was around. The Skies black with aircraft and their engine noise would shake your whole body, convoys of trucks that would take hours to pass the end of road. Even ten years later there were still a lot of the knocking around and no one every really thought about a time when there would not any left. I can remember them dumping Spitfires in the sea of Malaysia in the 1950's just to get rid of them when newer aircraft came along. There again the people where looking for consumer goods after the war and there was this huge pile of metal just sitting around, so it was turned into goods, and I think after what those people had gone through they were just looking for a better life. Also it was all these people who had given up so much to make all these weapons of war and all they wanted was a better life afterwards.
March 6th, 2012  
MontyB
 
 
To bring us back on track I have just picked the book...

Why Germany Nearly Won: A New History of the Second World War in Europe (War, Technology, and History) by Steven D Mercatante which looks quite interesting, I expect it to be somewhat revisionist but it has received a number of good reviews.

Why Germany Nearly Won: A New History of the Second World War in Europe (War, Technology, and History) [Hardcover]
Steven D Mercatante (Author)
Book Description
Publication Date: January 16, 2012 | ISBN-10: 0313395926 | ISBN-13: 978-0313395925
Why Germany Nearly Won challenges today's conventional wisdom explaining Germany's Second World War defeat as inevitable primarily for brute force economic or military reasons created when Germany attacked the Soviet Union. Taking an entirely new perspective on explaining the Second World War in Europe, and its outcome, at its core Why Germany Nearly Won offers the reader three interrelated, unique, and potentially ground-breaking arguments. First, qualitative differences between the combatants proved more important in determining the War's outcome than have the quantitative brute force measures so commonly discussed in the past. Second, attacking the Soviet Union represented Germany's best opportunity to win a War which, by commonly cited measures of military potential, Germany never should have had even a remote chance of winning. Third, for reasons frequently overlooked and misunderstood Germany came far closer to winning the War than has previously been recognized.

http://www.amazon.com/Why-Germany-Ne...ref=pd_sim_b_4
March 7th, 2012  
Doppleganger
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
To bring us back on track I have just picked the book...

Why Germany Nearly Won: A New History of the Second World War in Europe (War, Technology, and History) by Steven D Mercatante which looks quite interesting, I expect it to be somewhat revisionist but it has received a number of good reviews.

Why Germany Nearly Won: A New History of the Second World War in Europe (War, Technology, and History) [Hardcover]
Steven D Mercatante (Author)
Book Description
Publication Date: January 16, 2012 | ISBN-10: 0313395926 | ISBN-13: 978-0313395925
Why Germany Nearly Won challenges today's conventional wisdom explaining Germany's Second World War defeat as inevitable primarily for brute force economic or military reasons created when Germany attacked the Soviet Union. Taking an entirely new perspective on explaining the Second World War in Europe, and its outcome, at its core Why Germany Nearly Won offers the reader three interrelated, unique, and potentially ground-breaking arguments. First, qualitative differences between the combatants proved more important in determining the War's outcome than have the quantitative brute force measures so commonly discussed in the past. Second, attacking the Soviet Union represented Germany's best opportunity to win a War which, by commonly cited measures of military potential, Germany never should have had even a remote chance of winning. Third, for reasons frequently overlooked and misunderstood Germany came far closer to winning the War than has previously been recognized.

http://www.amazon.com/Why-Germany-Ne...ref=pd_sim_b_4
Hi Monty, I hope you are well.

I'm not sure there will be anything new in that book, although the ideas in it are not the majority view and it sounds quite interesting. BTW, I see nothing wrong with a revisionist view as long as it's objective and seeks to correct widely-held misnomers and half-truths with either new evidence or new interpretation of existing evidence.

After looking at Barbarossa it is evident that the Germans lost the war in 1941, not 1940. Adopting a 2 season campaign and taking advantage of 'liberating' oppressed peoples under the Soviets might have won the European war for Germany. If you were taking part in a simulation or wargame and you were trying to win in 1941 from the Germany's historical start these points are almost no-brainers to me. However, the nature of the Nazi regime never would have allowed these two decisions to be made in the first place. Thus we have a paradox where the Nazi regime was both necessary to foster a Germany with the potential to dominate the European continent but at the same time was the reason for it's ultimate failure.

Although Germany lost the war by virtue of the actions they undertook against the Soviet Union in 1941, it was still absolutely necessary that they attacked when they did. Another paradox in a sense.
 


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