Germany lost the war in 1940 - Page 3




 
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February 22nd, 2012  
VDKMS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
Personally I would suggest that they knew Operation Sealion was not going to go ahead and therefore there was no point in continuing the Battle of Britain, they then switched to bombing cities and infrastructure in order to hinder British ability to regain strength at minimal cost and moved the bulk of their forces to the next objective.

Even had the Luftwaffe been able to destroy every airfield in Southern England the RAF would have simply moved North out of German fighter range and carried on the fight.
Any German invasion would still have to come through the Royal Navy covered by the RAF protected by a Kriegsmarine that had been soundly hammered in Norway, in the end I think it was fairly obvious no invasion of Britain was possible, the only available opportunity was on the heels of the Dunkirk evacuation when chaos reigned not in September.
The RAF problem was not the airfields, but the planes destroyed on the ground. The switch to bombing the cities came just in time. The switch was on Hitler's orders because Churchill demanded a revenge attack on German cities because of the error of a German bomber squadron. If that error didn't happend then the Luftwaffe propably was able to achieve air superiority in southern England bacause of a lack of RAF planes. Air superiority was needed for operation Sea Lion.
February 22nd, 2012  
VDKMS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
Lets be honest here most of the troops and all of the divisions garrisoning France in 1944 were understrength, under equipped, half trained troops made up of recovering units from Russia, troops unfit for front line service in Russia and foreign conscripts that didn't want to be there anyway and D-Day was still a touch and go affair.
You seem to forget the 3 veteran Panzer divisions, the 91st air landing (with the 6th parachute regiment, one of the best troops the Germans had in Normandy) and some others. They were under equipped and there were "foreign" soldiers but the German forces in Normandy were not weak.
February 22nd, 2012  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS
You seem to forget the 3 veteran Panzer divisions, the 91st air landing (with the 6th parachute regiment, one of the best troops the Germans had in Normandy) and some others. They were under equipped and there were "foreign" soldiers but the German forces in Normandy were not weak.
German OOB in Normandy on June 6th:
Divisions in the coastal area between Cherbourg and Caen:

716th infantrydivision: this division was of poor quality, it was formed of sick men not suited for duty and former Polish and Russian prisoners. It was earmarked to protect the eastern beaches (UK sector)

709th infantrydivision: this division was the same as the 716th: poor quality - with mixed nationalities. It defended the eastern and northern part of the Cotentin peninsula.

352nd infantrydivision: this division was well trained and equiped, it was formed out of Eastern front veterans. It defended the area between Bayeux and Carentan.

91st airlandingdivision: (Luftlande – air transported): this division was formed from the old 1057 and 1058 paratroop regiments, it was originally trained and equiped to be transported by air. Its task was the defense of the Cotentin peninsula.

6th Fallschirmjaegerregiment: a well trained and equiped regiment, its task was the defense of Carentan.

Reserve:
Divisions in the rear area of Caen

243rd infantrydivision: Generalleutnant Heinz Hellmich: with regiments 920/921 and 922, tasked with the defense of the western part of Cotentin peninsula.
711th infantrydivision: formed with regiments 731 and 744. This division defended the western part of the Pays de Caux / Le Havre area.
30th mobile brigade: Oberstleutnant Freiherr von und zu Aufsess: a mixed unit with at least 3 batallions infantry on bikes.

Army Group B Divisions in reserve

21st panzerdivision: Generalmajor Edgar Feuchtinger: This division was the only panzer-equiped and combat-worthy panzerunit in the invasion area, however just as all units it lacked (experienced) men.

OKW Reserve

12th SS Panzerdivision Hitlerjugend: Brigadeführer Fritz Witt: based around Caen, long-serving veterans, with junior soldiers which been recruited directly from the Hitler Youth movement at the age of seventeen in 1943.

Panzer Lehr division: General major Fritz Bayerlein: division formed from soldiers of the panzerschule, unusually high numbers of the latest and most capable armoured vehicles.

Of that I see a few well trained and experienced units, a few trained and inexperienced units and a whole lot of garisson quality troops (young, old, unfit and foriegn conscripts).


Source:http://www.warandtactics.com/smf/wor...-during-d-day/
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February 23rd, 2012  
Trooper1854
 
 
The Germans placed the Ost Battalion, and such like, in the vast network of bunkers of the Atlantic Wall.
They believed they were more likely to stand and fight if protected by feet of amoured concrete, (with an NCO behind them with a gun!).
Usually they shot the NCOs and surrendered first chance they got.
The other units were not to be written off, even the 12th SS Hitler Jugend, though 16, 17, 18 years of age they were fanatical fighters.
What they lacked in experience they made up for in aggressive spirit.
February 23rd, 2012  
Der Alte
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS
I also believed that the German defeat was because they fought on to many fronts. But when I follow der alte's logic this fighting on many fronts may be a direct result of the invincibility feel of the Germans.

In my opinion the Battle of Britain was also a turning point in the war in so far that it changed the way it was fought. After a German crew bombed a civilian target by mistake Churchill immediately ordered a revenge attack which in turn make Hitler decide to bomb London instead of the RAF airfields, and the "massacre" bombing raids got started on both sides. The RAF was the clear winner of this descision because now their planes were only destroyed in the air, a place where they were superiour to the Germans.

@Trooper1854
in the 90's I went to visit the "I was 20 in 45" exhibition in Brussels. It showed some stuff the resistance and intelligence people used. Quite remarkable things for that time.
For the people of Britain the air battle over ther heads was a decisive battle; in fact, it was the decisive battle for them, and the continued existence of ther island empire was the stake. For Germany´s standpoint, the BOB was an attempt to cripple an enemy by air power alone, and to such an extent that he would no longer be in a position to offer serious military resistance. In the end, as seen from the German angle, the battle also turned out to be a decisive one - the invasion and subjugation of Britain was made to depend on victory in that battle, and its outcome therefore materially influenced both the further course and the fate of the war as a whole.
February 23rd, 2012  
BritinBritain
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Der Alte
For the people of Britain the air battle over ther heads was a decisive battle; in fact, it was the decisive battle for them, and the continued existence of ther island empire was the stake. For Germany´s standpoint, the BOB was an attempt to cripple an enemy by air power alone, and to such an extent that he would no longer be in a position to offer serious military resistance. In the end, as seen from the German angle, the battle also turned out to be a decisive one - the invasion and subjugation of Britain was made to depend on victory in that battle, and its outcome therefore materially influenced both the further course and the fate of the war as a whole.
In all honesty, even if the RAF had lost the Battle of Britain I really don't think Germany could have successfully invaded Britain due to the strength of Royal Navy.
February 23rd, 2012  
Der Alte
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BritinAfrica
In all honesty, even if the RAF had lost the Battle of Britain I really don't think Germany could have successfully invaded Britain due to the strength of Royal Navy.
I totally agree and the fact that Hitler lacked that singleminded determinination with had been so marked in his other campaigns, to achive victory swiftly and decisively in all circomstances and despite difficulties and in the face of all doubts and misgivings.
February 23rd, 2012  
LeEnfield
 
 
In 1940 sea power was already being superseeded by air power, and bringing the the battleships into the chanel would not only made them an easy targert for the German Airforce but brought then in range of the German artillery. Let alone the U Boats and the minefields that would have been sown in front of them
February 24th, 2012  
Trooper1854
 
 
I think the simple answer can be said to be, that Germany was not prepared to fight a long drawn out war.
They were fin using Blitz Krieg on countries like Poland, Belgium France etc, that reeled from the shock of the impact, but when it turned into a slogging match, they were not up to it.
February 26th, 2012  
MontyB
 
 
I think the mistake we continually make over this matter is that we try to focus on "one" reason for the loss and I think we put too much blame on Hitler himself, Germany's defeat is far more complex than just blaming Hitler but that is what 70 years of education and conditioning has taught us to do.
 


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