The German invasion of Russia: - Page 2




 
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October 18th, 2007  
Kunikov
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Del Boy
Just another historical irrelevance from me. It seems to me that the Russians, because of their confidence in Generals Janvier and Fevrier, never get serious until Moscow can see the whites of their invaders' eyes. Then they get under their duvets and hibernate. OK,OK -I'm going.
Have you ever thought about reading literature and learning about the topics you'd like to offer an ill formed opinion on?
October 18th, 2007  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger
Well it would be a 2 season Blitzkrieg campaign. The major difficulty I see though is gaining the impetus/surprise for season 2. The problem would be that the schwerpunkt of any new advance would have to be carefully considered, with the element of surprise being crucial for success.

Stalin ignored all the signals for German build-up for the historical campaign. Why then would he react to a slightly bigger logistical build-up and more focused military build-up? He would most likely ignore it again.
I find it hard to believe there would have been a hope in hell they could have put together a "surprise" second season.
Personally I am still convinced the extra 6 weeks and manpower lost bailing the Italians out in the Balkans may have been more crucial than has been discussed.
October 18th, 2007  
Doppleganger
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kunikov
There's no such thing as a 'two season' blitzkrieg campaign.
Says who?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kunikov
A Blitzkrieg campaign is a quick battle, at most a month or two, and that's what the Germans planned for.
In a 2 season campaign the Germans would ideally only be actually fighting for around a maximum of 5 months in each season. Barbarossa lasted around 6 months and that was a Blitzkrieg campaign interspersed with more traditional 'keil und kassel' operations to reduce encircled pockets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kunikov
Stalin didn't ignore 'all the signals' rather he was suspicious of them. If he saw forces for a real campaign against the Soviet Union, that'd be a different story.
Well he did virtually nothing about the signals, despite being warned by 3 separate, reliable sources. There is nothing to suggest he'd react any differently to an altered Operation Barbarossa.
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October 18th, 2007  
Doppleganger
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
I find it hard to believe there would have been a hope in hell they could have put together a "surprise" second season.
Personally I am still convinced the extra 6 weeks and manpower lost bailing the Italians out in the Balkans may have been more crucial than has been discussed.
Well that's exactly what they did historically in Case Blau in 1942. The Soviets expected them to have another go at capturing Moscow but the Germans struck south instead.
October 18th, 2007  
Kunikov
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
I find it hard to believe there would have been a hope in hell they could have put together a "surprise" second season.
Personally I am still convinced the extra 6 weeks and manpower lost bailing the Italians out in the Balkans may have been more crucial than has been discussed.
The 6 weeks would have been lost nonetheless since the Rasputitsa was extra long that year.
October 18th, 2007  
Kunikov
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger
Says who?
The creators of the concept of Blitzkrieg.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger
In a 2 season campaign the Germans would ideally only be actually fighting for around a maximum of 5 months in each season. Barbarossa lasted around 6 months and that was a Blitzkrieg campaign interspersed with more traditional 'keil und kassel' operations to reduce encircled pockets.
How long was Barbarossa supposed to last for? Around 8-12 weeks, what actually happened and what the Germans planned for are two different things. Tying into the other and trying to make a basis for a 'two season campaign' won't work. Read "Blitzkreig Legend" by Karl-heinz Frieser.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger
Well he did virtually nothing about the signals, despite being warned by 3 separate, reliable sources. There is nothing to suggest he'd react any differently to an altered Operation Barbarossa.
You apparently don't know much about what was going on. It would obviously be useless to try convince you otherwise. Simply put, for every action there is an opposite and equal reaction. There is a reason for the Red Army numbering over 5 million men by 1941 when in the late 1930's they had only around 1 million. In large part that is due to German warmongering.
October 18th, 2007  
Del Boy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kunikov
Have you ever thought about reading literature and learning about the topics you'd like to offer an ill formed opinion on?
Ooooooooooh! No need to throw your rattle out of your pram old chap. Why not pull your finger out and try a smile. Glad to know you can read, not all of us are that bright.
October 18th, 2007  
Doppleganger
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kunikov
The creators of the concept of Blitzkrieg.
When did they say this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kunikov
How long was Barbarossa supposed to last for? Around 8-12 weeks, what actually happened and what the Germans planned for are two different things. Tying into the other and trying to make a basis for a 'two season campaign' won't work. Read "Blitzkreig Legend" by Karl-heinz Frieser.
Why can't you tell me yourself why you think it won't work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kunikov
You apparently don't know much about what was going on. It would obviously be useless to try convince you otherwise. Simply put, for every action there is an opposite and equal reaction. There is a reason for the Red Army numbering over 5 million men by 1941 when in the late 1930's they had only around 1 million. In large part that is due to German warmongering.
Is that so? What you posted here is basically waffle and has nothing to do with my point that Stalin did very little when he knew of the impending German invasion. Unless you have respected sources that state otherwise?
October 18th, 2007  
LeEnfield
 
 
There were to few Germans and to many Russians. The Germans did not have the man power to hold what they had taken and fight in Russia and North Africa
October 19th, 2007  
Del Boy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Del Boy

It seems to me that the Russians, because of their confidence in Generals Janvier and Fevrier, never get serious until Moscow can see the whites of their invaders' eyes. Then they get under their duvets and hibernate.


In retrospect i have come to the conclusion that my above abbreviated history of the campaigns against Russia best sums up their strategies. And they work. And i learnt it at school. And that's the true story of Russian victorious defence, in a few words..
 


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