I am currently trying to decide what branch of the military in which to enlist. I have always wanted to go army West Point, but I want to go SF's as a route to Delta(If selected). That means boot, 2 years SF training, 4 years West Point, and then a minimum 8 years service after that (5 active, 3 reserve). Thats a lot of time. I want to get to the most elite part of the military. (I am not trying to be cocky SOB but I want to be my best). I also dont wanna be told that I can no longer serve in the manner in which I want( for example I read a forum that said Recon have a max 7 year tour, then return to other duties). One other thing on my endless list of demands (lol) is I want to be where the best, brightest, and most recent technologies are incorporated into the military.

I dont want to end up some desk jockey. Thats what ive done so far, and I expect to do late in life. Im not wanting it just for the thrill, I feel that if I am willing to support a cause, I need to be willing to lay MY life on the line, not just other soldiers.
So my question becomes;

a) What branch has the more difficult and extensive SpecOps training
b) What branch would I be able to continue SpecOps until I can no longer/decide Im done
c) Which Branch is the most engaged
d) Who is going to get the Future Warrior 2020 first

My recruiter told me that Army SF are basically the units that train foreign allied militaries. I dont really want that, but he said that it is the fastest way to Delta, because you will make ranks quickly and that is what they look for. Do rangers have as good of training and equal chance at Delta? Is there a Marine equivilent of Delta? Higher echelons?? Please help!

Well I can answer some of your Questions.

A) All are extremly long and very difficult
B) Ask your recruiter
C) No one really knows, thats kinda the whole point.
D) Army

I suggest reading Inside Delta Force by Eric Haney. Go here for info on Marine Detatchment One http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/marin...Special+Forces

Originally Posted by Spartacus

I am currently trying to decide what branch of the military in which to enlist. I have always wanted to go army West Point, but I want to go SF's as a route to Delta(If selected). That means boot, 2 years SF training, 4 years West Point, and then a minimum 8 years service after that (5 active, 3 reserve).

You aren't going to complete SF training and then head off to West Point. You will be on an ODA until your enlistment is up. Then, if you want, you can go to West Point, come back into the military as an officer (providing you aren't too old at this point) .. spend two or three years in an infantry unit, put in your SF packet once you're a 1LT(P) and go through the SFQC all over again.

I want to get to the most elite part of the military. (I am not trying to be cocky SOB but I want to be my best). I also dont wanna be told that I can no longer serve in the manner in which I want( for example I read a forum that said Recon have a max 7 year tour, then return to other duties). One other thing on my endless list of demands (lol) is I want to be where the best, brightest, and most recent technologies are incorporated into the military.

That can happen anywhere.

Most recent technologies are not always a good thing. Sometimes, the compass is your best friend. Do not wear rose coloured glasses about technology, while it is good and useful - you will find yourself more times than not, relying on simple, old fashioned fieldcraft and your rifle.

I dont want to end up some desk jockey. Thats what ive done so far, and I expect to do late in life. Im not wanting it just for the thrill, I feel that if I am willing to support a cause, I need to be willing to lay MY life on the line, not just other soldiers.

Regardless of officer or enlisted, you will push a desk at some point in your career. Esp. if you want to be an officer. Everyone will get tagged with staff time at some point. And I would not be so quick to knock all desk jobs - some of those desk jockeys are what keeps the good guys from becoming prey to the bad guys.

So my question becomes;

a) What branch has the more difficult and extensive SpecOps training
b) What branch would I be able to continue SpecOps until I can no longer/decide Im done
c) Which Branch is the most engaged
d) Who is going to get the Future Warrior 2020 first

A) This is a silly question. Obviously, if they are SOF units, all of their training is difficult and extensive.

B) Needs of the military will always come first. You will go and do what they need you to do, regardless of your opinions on where you should be. If Army is your choice, and you want to take a shot at SF - an enlsited career is your best option. But again, there is no guarantee you will spend your entire career on an ODA. Some guys do, some guys get set to the school houses, some guys get staff positions. But as an enlsited 18series, regardless of your assignments, you will get plenty of time on an ODA.

C) Everyone, we're at war you know.

D) Why? Whomever gets it first has the hassle of fixing all of the bugs, putting it back on the shelf, realising, it's not as great as hyped - and losing money that would go to otherwise useful tools. The nature of military procurement. As of now, it has no impact on mission effectiveness, so I hope it isn't a factor in deciding what you want to do. Do not let the flashy 'stuff' influence you.

My recruiter told me that Army SF are basically the units that train foreign allied militaries.

SF has a wide variety of missions. FID is certainly their bread and butter, but it isn't everything. You will find SF doing more direct action in Iraq and Afghanistan at the moment than you will FID. The Special Forces mission is broad.

I dont really want that, but he said that it is the fastest way to Delta, because you will make ranks quickly and that is what they look for.

Passing SFQC is a requirement anyway.

Do rangers have as good of training and equal chance at Delta? Is there a Marine equivilent of Delta? Higher echelons?? Please help!

Rangers out outstanding training. SFOD recruits from all over the Army - there is an entire pool of talent in the US Army, from the water treatment fellas, to the line infantryman.

You seem to be focusing too much on SFOD-D. It would be smart for you to realise now, chances of you ever serving on it are very, very slim. Getting too far ahead of yourself is a sure way of failing.

You need to focus on your 25m target, and stop looking at the 500m target. Right now, you are all over the board with what you want to do. My suggestion to you is do some research, decide first if you want to join the Army or Marine Corps. Because there is a large chance, you'll be serving in conventional forces. Make certain you want to be a Soldier or Marine and would be happy being a line grunt. A lot of good men, good Soldiers and Marines do not make it - chance of you doing so are slim to none at this point. Think about that, and remember it when/if you sign up. Make certain you have the security and dedication it takes to excell at whatever you end up doing.

People do not join SOF units for a simple "change in lifestyle." You have to really want it, or you will fail. A large part of training is mental - and a majority of those that quit, do so because they realise it isn't glamourous. It's hard work, pain and sacrifice.. a lot of it.

Go Army 8)
It is the largest of the armed services and therefore you will have a better chance to get what you want. The competition will be much greater in a smaller service.

Just my opinion.

Originally Posted by RnderSafe

Most recent technologies are not always a good thing. Sometimes, the compass is your best friend. Do not wear rose coloured glasses about technology, while it is good and useful - you will find yourself more times than not, relying on simple, old fashioned fieldcraft and your rifle.

I know and am not trying to get to a high enough technology where traditional techniques are discarded, merely gear which is more advanced in order to supplement those techniques.

"Everyone will get tagged with staff time at some point. And I would not be so quick to knock all desk jobs - some of those desk jockeys are what keeps the good guys from becoming prey to the bad guys. "

I am in no way insinuating that desk jobs are bad or unimportant. I understand that some of the militaries most brilliant people are behind a desk, often supervising the activities of those in the field. I also understand that at some point, I could be assigned a 'desk job', whether for an amount of time or permanently. I just want to be able to be in the field as long as I can.


In regards to my question about the difficulty and extensivity of SpecOps training you wrote:

This is a silly question. Obviously, if they are SOF units, all of their training is difficult and extensive.

I dont consider this a silly question in that there is a difference in the basic training offered by the Army and the Marines. I didn't know whether or not those training differences carry over into the SpecOps fields. Not necessarily meaning that one is better than the other, but perhaps more intensified on ground combat operations.

In regards to my question on which branch is more engaged you said:

"Everyone, we're at war you know."

I dont necessarily mean who is involved in the war, and perhaps my civilian use of 'engage' is viewed differently in the military. I simply meant who has more time in the field. From the way I have been told, Marines do 'First push' and Army clean up. As much as everyone hates third-hand accounts, I have heard rumors of Army personnel not as active on a daily basis as I would have thought. Not meaning that there is something wrong, I am merely inquiring as to which of the two branches are generally deployed in the 'hot zones'.

Dealing with my question on who gets the future combat suits first you replied:

"Why? Whomever gets it first has the hassle of fixing all of the bugs, putting it back on the shelf, realising, it's not as great as hyped - and losing money that would go to otherwise useful tools. The nature of military procurement. As of now, it has no impact on mission effectiveness, so I hope it isn't a factor in deciding what you want to do. Do not let the flashy 'stuff' influence you. "

I agree that there may be unforseen bugs and problems with the suit, as well as future gear. However, hasnt the same been said about equipment such as the bradley? the M-16? Isn't all new equipment subject to that same criticism when it is first developed? And the money that could have been applied to other tools, would that mean not doin R&D on new gear, since all of it will obviously have to be scrapped? If that was the way that it was run, we would probably be still using the Kenticky Rifle and powderhorn.

I do agree that as of now, it has no impact either on mission effectiveness, or my desire to join. I have, even in civilian life, decided that equipment is not there in order to allow me to complete my objective, merely to facilitate me doing to. It should be used, not depended upon.

"You seem to be focusing too much on SFOD-D. It would be smart for you to realise now, chances of you ever serving on it are very, very slim. Getting too far ahead of yourself is a sure way of failing."

I appreciate the warning. I am not trying to get ahead of myself(although I may be). I do however feel that I should keep my eyes on the prize and give it my all, and then more until I accomplish it, or die trying(a little drastic, but you get the picture).

"You need to focus on your 25m target, and stop looking at the 500m target."

I understand. In track and cross-country, I learned the difference between the pace for a 400m and the 5km. I wouldn't be able to carry the same 1/4 mile dash pace for much longer than that, just as it would be rediculous for me to run it in the 3.107 mile pace. I am just trying to make sure that I am on pace for my goal, and dont ruin my chances of making it with poor timing and/or planning.

"People do not join SOF units for a simple "change in lifestyle." You have to really want it, or you will fail. A large part of training is mental - and a majority of those that quit, do so because they realise it isn't glamourous. It's hard work, pain and sacrifice.. a lot of it."

Thank you for the warning. I am not joining for a change in lifestyle. My whole life I have always, always wanted to be in the military. I am not considering joining so that I can be honored, adored, or even respected. I am joining because of a set of principles that I believe in to my core. I am willing to accept the hard work, pain, and sacrifice. Not because of a desire for glory, but because of what I feel I would be doing, and actually making a difference.

Thank you for the time and patience RnderSafe.

Also thanks for the Article FutureDevilDog. I will read that book, after THE MARINE AT KHE SAHN.

Originally Posted by Spartacus

I am in no way insinuating that desk jobs are bad or unimportant. I understand that some of the militaries most brilliant people are behind a desk, often supervising the activities of those in the field. I also understand that at some point, I could be assigned a 'desk job', whether for an amount of time or permanently. I just want to be able to be in the field as long as I can.

If that is the case, and you want to join SF - your best option is to enlist.

I dont necessarily mean who is involved in the war, and perhaps my civilian use of 'engage' is viewed differently in the military. I simply meant who has more time in the field. From the way I have been told, Marines do 'First push' and Army clean up. As much as everyone hates third-hand accounts, I have heard rumors of Army personnel not as active on a daily basis as I would have thought. Not meaning that there is something wrong, I am merely inquiring as to which of the two branches are generally deployed in the 'hot zones'.

In Special Operations, all branches are the "first push." From Army SF to Air Force Pararescue. SOF units are generally in country long before conventional boots hit the ground.

As far as the Army doing clean up - traditionally, the US Army is the "stay behind" force, however, in this war - everyone is the push and the stay behind. Everyone is doing patrols, manning checkpoints and kicking down doors.

I agree that there may be unforseen bugs and problems with the suit, as well as future gear. However, hasnt the same been said about equipment such as the bradley? the M-16? Isn't all new equipment subject to that same criticism when it is first developed? And the money that could have been applied to other tools, would that mean not doin R&D on new gear, since all of it will obviously have to be scrapped? If that was the way that it was run, we would probably be still using the Kenticky Rifle and powderhorn.

The point of my response was not to ignore technology - the point was you do not want to be the guinea pig. No where did I imply research and advances are not worth while endeavours. Money spent on R&D is one thing, money spent on trying to reinvent the wheel, which the DoD has a horrible habit of doing, is a completely different and ugly thing.

Ask a few PJs or Recon Marines how they feel about the Osprey they'll soon be riding to work in.

I do agree that as of now, it has no impact either on mission effectiveness, or my desire to join. I have, even in civilian life, decided that equipment is not there in order to allow me to complete my objective, merely to facilitate me doing to. It should be used, not depended upon.

Remember this down the road and you will save yourself a lot of headaches.

I appreciate the warning. I am not trying to get ahead of myself(although I may be). I do however feel that I should keep my eyes on the prize and give it my all, and then more until I accomplish it, or die trying(a little drastic, but you get the picture).

As I said prior, the prize can be a lot of things. You may very well accomplish your goal, but you may also fail and be assigned to the 82nd Airborne Division. What question you should ask yourself is: "Will I be able to press on regardless of circumstances?"

When you spend so much time focusing on the prize - you tend to lose focus on what is in front of you, and even the smallest of mistakes can ruin your chances.

As of right now, I am more heavily considering Marine Corp. I am planning on taking more time to make sure that is what I want to do, and not just an effect of reading The Marine at Khe Sahn.

Either way, I would like some help in preparing myself in the best manner possible. I have started getting up before school to do push-ups, sit-ups, jumping-jacks, and flutter kicks, as well as a little running (very little because I have a fluid build up in my knee). I try to make sure I hit the weights at night, take a protein shake, and vitamins.

I am reading books such as The Marine at Khe Sahn and How Hitler and the Allies Misread the Strategic truths of WWII. Inside Delta Force has also hit the reading list. What other books are there to consider?

I dont have access to any firearms, but I do go paintballing and laser-tagging. I also have an airsoft gun that is supposedly used by State Police trainees. Should there be other things I should do as far as shooting goes? To be honest the only shooting I have done is skeet shooting with a shotgun, but seemed to do okay with that.

If anyone has any suggestions as to other things to prepare me for entry into either Army or Marines, please let me know.

I am also considering a career as a marine. right now im in rotc, and will continue until i finish high school. I dont know what you goals are in the marines, but you definitely want to decide what it is you want to do. and with the shooting part, i believe everyone gets the same shooting training regardless of past experience and what not.

My goal is to become a usmc sniper.

Originally Posted by FULLMETALJACKET

I am also considering a career as a marine. right now im in rotc, and will continue until i finish high school. I dont know what you goals are in the marines, but you definitely want to decide what it is you want to do. and with the shooting part, i believe everyone gets the same shooting training regardless of past experience and what not.

Definitely. I wanna go Force Recon eventually, so I wanted to be as prepared as possible. The reason I wanted to go shooting and do stuff like paintball is to get more comfortable with target practice and tactics.

Good luck with the sniper stuff tho, itll be rough.

Well FMJ. You might want to start typing Marine and USMC with the proper cap's.

Do not. I repeat Do not worry about tactics or marksmanship at this point. If you enlist the Corps will have wonderful NCO's called PMI's to teach you how the Marine Corps wants you to shoot. The less you know the less bad habits they have to relieve you of.

The Instructors at SOI will teach you Small unit tactics, if you pass the INDOC for Recon and are accepted then you will be further schooled on the tactics required of you in that enviroment.

I have to agree with RndrSafe. Seems a few folks have the cart well ahead of the horse. It's fine and good to say I want to be a Super Duper Freaky Spec Op's Ninja Night Fighter. But first concentrate on becoming a Marine then a Good Infantry Marine. Then worry about cool badges or titles.