jillyz12
Active member
Although those aren't the words I used, I AM the one who expressed that sentiment.....and I stand by it. We DO need someone to fight for us. You have only to pay attention in history class to see that.
Facebook group: soldiers are not heroes
Although those aren't the words I used, I AM the one who expressed that sentiment.....and I stand by it. We DO need someone to fight for us. You have only to pay attention in history class to see that.
Yes jillyz12. But you are not the only one to voice this opinion.
I can easily sink your argument with a sentence starting with "what if". Just know that you dont have to be a professional soldier to defend yourself. Yours odds of survival and success are better when you are trained, equipped and supported by other soldiers. But that's it.
Soldiers are the heroes and the villains at the same time. It's a matter of perspective. I need soldiers to defend me against other soldiers. What is the value of this status if it's not universal?
And any human beings can be a soldier. Have you heard about conscription? You take a civilian, you give him some training and a rifle, and you get a soldier.
Now, how to make a good soldier, it's a question of standards and of means. It's another topic...
We just have to keep in mind that soldiers are human beings, just like you and me. And to be called heroes, they have to earn it by doing something great.
And I wont even start with war crimes and systemic corruption...
Some soldiers are heroes. Because they dived on a grenade to save fellow soldiers. Because they risked their lives to spare innocent bystanders. Because they spoke against the corruption in their own ranks. etc... For good reasons.
There was a time when being a hero had a real meaning.
I can easily sink your argument with a sentence starting with "what if". Just know that you dont have to be a professional soldier to defend yourself. Yours odds of survival and success are better when you are trained, equipped and supported by other soldiers. But that's it.
Soldiers are the heroes and the villains at the same time. It's a matter of perspective. I need soldiers to defend me against other soldiers. What is the value of this status if it's not universal?
And any human beings can be a soldier. Have you heard about conscription? You take a civilian, you give him some training and a rifle, and you get a soldier.
Now, how to make a good soldier, it's a question of standards and of means. It's another topic...
We just have to keep in mind that soldiers are human beings, just like you and me. And to be called heroes, they have to earn it by doing something great.
And I wont even start with war crimes and systemic corruption...
Some soldiers are heroes. Because they dived on a grenade to save fellow soldiers. Because they risked their lives to spare innocent bystanders. Because they spoke against the corruption in their own ranks. etc... For good reasons.
There was a time when being a hero had a real meaning.
MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
I will take the easy way out and back this.
No hard feeling, you have every right to disagree. But I want you to try to convince me.
Give me an example.
Did you notice that I spoke about "good soldier" and "just a soldier"?
A soldier can be a man with a rifle, or a man inside a tank. You dont even have to be a good human being... A simple man in a tank killing poorly equiped enemies can be considered a good soldier if he does his job like he was taught to do.
With enough luck of course... Because it will take some bad luck to get him out of his tracks to prove himself...
Give me an example.
Did you notice that I spoke about "good soldier" and "just a soldier"?
A soldier can be a man with a rifle, or a man inside a tank. You dont even have to be a good human being... A simple man in a tank killing poorly equiped enemies can be considered a good soldier if he does his job like he was taught to do.
With enough luck of course... Because it will take some bad luck to get him out of his tracks to prove himself...
GHR
Active member
"To the world you might be one person, but to one person you just might be the world"
This can be anything; from the old woman whose hero is the firefighter who pulled her out of a burning building, the soldier who fought for the same ideals you believe in, to the boy whose hero is a simple organ donor for his much needed new kidney. Even all the way down to a little girl whose hero is her dad for checking to make sure there are no monsters in her closet before bed. All of these people are heroes to someone – a person who has helped another out of kindness and love, and nothing more. So, it is not the one who walks away as the victor from battles that is a hero, but the one who walks through life holding true to those qualities that highlight the good in mankind. And then it does not matter whether you are a soldier or not.
As soldiers, we perform a job. For some, we are role models and heroes. But we will never define ourselves as heroes.
This can be anything; from the old woman whose hero is the firefighter who pulled her out of a burning building, the soldier who fought for the same ideals you believe in, to the boy whose hero is a simple organ donor for his much needed new kidney. Even all the way down to a little girl whose hero is her dad for checking to make sure there are no monsters in her closet before bed. All of these people are heroes to someone – a person who has helped another out of kindness and love, and nothing more. So, it is not the one who walks away as the victor from battles that is a hero, but the one who walks through life holding true to those qualities that highlight the good in mankind. And then it does not matter whether you are a soldier or not.
As soldiers, we perform a job. For some, we are role models and heroes. But we will never define ourselves as heroes.
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senojekips
Active member
I'd say that this post is about as close to Spam as you can get.
"Self recommendation is no recommendation at all"
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How about if fok stopped coming forward to do our soldiering, deciding they didn't wish to put their lives at risk. Same question re. prison guards, firefighters, police.
Who will do the vital dirty work to shelter the rest of us, if not the heroes?
Fancy putting your life on the line every day?
Who will do the vital dirty work to shelter the rest of us, if not the heroes?
Fancy putting your life on the line every day?
MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
How would that be different than if people stopped coming forward to be doctors, nurses, farmers, engineers, supermarket workers, gardeners etc. the reality is that professions do not confer hero status individual actions do.
Very, very, very different.
Individual action counts of course but the Gospel according to MontyB is not a good analogy here.
Why the hell would those you list bail out en mass to any degree - they do not have to put their lives on the line every day, routine. And I believe we are talking vocations here, not professions. (IMHO). A better analogy would be deep- sea fishermen perhaps if you are quoting professions.
But my scenario is very real indeed and is a concern of mine; this scenario is real, not a war-game.
Our SAS is already suffering, strength is now down to 1/3rd of necessity.
Think on.
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MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
I think you SAS is down to 1/3rd strength because your government has blown all its cash and has over stretched its standing army not because no one wants to join the SAS.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...crisis-as-Army-is-stretched-to-the-limit.html
And for the record I have no idea why anyone would want to work in any of the jobs I listed except engineer ;-)
But the fact is that if no one took up these roles society as a whole would turn to crap pretty damn quick and as such all roles carry equal weight and hero's and villains can come from any profession.
Your link did not fully cover the content. Quotes from the speeches : 'The SAS is facing a recruitment crisis because soldiers are too overstretched to apply to join the elite regiment', an army commander warned; Head of Infantry Brigadier Richard Dennis said 'the unrelentingly demanding operations in Afghanistan were combining to mitigate against Special Forces recruitment'. He had deep concerns that urgent action was needed to improve the 'strength and quality' of recruits. Former SAS man Robin Horsfall told the BBC that the regiment no longer had the same appeal. Having been on the battlefront it's less alluring for soldiers to want to go into a more dangerous situation with Special Forces because they know what battle really is'.
If you can read between the line of your link you will recognise the same theme emerging.
I believe that your message diminishes the importance of our armed(and associated) services as a vocation for heroes; and that is a preliminary to chaos IMHO. And none of those other jobs demand that you put your life on the line every day, that is the key difference.
I come from the post WW11 era of conscription ; and that was not a pretty matter - five and a half years interruption of the most formative years of education and career launch - 18 - 23.
Dwell on this -' Our Armed Forces are no longer an attraction to young men as a vocation, prepared to offer their lives daily for a mere pittance, so conscription is necessary.
Mr MontyB - you have struck us a bit of a James Bond character - report to your local barracks at 9.00 am on Monday next with your trousers folded neatly over one arm - bomb-disposal for you my lad. You've talked the talk, now's your chance, everyone's a hero you know.'
Lovely Jubbly! :cheers: Stop nuking everywhere now, bomb disposal for you. We luv ya- we're all right BEHIND you remember.
TOMMY
by Rudyard Kipling (1865-1936)
I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o' beer,
The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:
O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play,
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play.
I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;
They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, wait outside";
But it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide,
The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
O it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide.
Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.
Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?"
But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.
We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints,
Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;
While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind",
But it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind,
There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
O it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind.
You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:
We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool - you bet that Tommy sees!
If you can read between the line of your link you will recognise the same theme emerging.
I believe that your message diminishes the importance of our armed(and associated) services as a vocation for heroes; and that is a preliminary to chaos IMHO. And none of those other jobs demand that you put your life on the line every day, that is the key difference.
I come from the post WW11 era of conscription ; and that was not a pretty matter - five and a half years interruption of the most formative years of education and career launch - 18 - 23.
Dwell on this -' Our Armed Forces are no longer an attraction to young men as a vocation, prepared to offer their lives daily for a mere pittance, so conscription is necessary.
Mr MontyB - you have struck us a bit of a James Bond character - report to your local barracks at 9.00 am on Monday next with your trousers folded neatly over one arm - bomb-disposal for you my lad. You've talked the talk, now's your chance, everyone's a hero you know.'
Lovely Jubbly! :cheers: Stop nuking everywhere now, bomb disposal for you. We luv ya- we're all right BEHIND you remember.
TOMMY
by Rudyard Kipling (1865-1936)
I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o' beer,
The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:
O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play,
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play.
I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;
They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, wait outside";
But it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide,
The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
O it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide.
Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.
Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?"
But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.
We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints,
Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;
While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind",
But it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind,
There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
O it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind.
You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:
We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool - you bet that Tommy sees!
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MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
I am very much a supporter of national service, I do not believe it does anything for the military but it does have some social benefits but for the record I have already spent 2 years in the service and would probably still be there had they not decided that my accident made me medically unfit to continue so the chances of me being recalled would be slim at best.
There you go - a wounded hero. I guessed as much.
There's always room for James Bond you know; Intelligence Corp, top refs from Milforum, can't lose. National Service? Well, I told them Royal Navy as I was an experienced seaman , missed out on Navigation Officer with The Blue Star Line only through short-sightedness, carried a permanently dislocated elbow, etc.etc. but they were very accomodating- Infantry for me. No sign of heroism in my case, obviously.:cheers:
'
Incidently - the line from my post starting 'Dwell on this.....' was the setting of a future scenario I was describing, not the current situation - yet!
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MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
Wounded hero? Getting run over by a drunk driver is not heroic it's just plain stupid.
Like I said National Service does nothing for the military, I am very opposed to conscript army's as they never perform as well as smaller professional all volunteer forces but national service does have a lot of social benefits.
Just about everyone I know that went through NS in New Zealand ended up in the infantry with the exception of my brother who wrangled his way into the air force and graduated at an air traffic controller.
Jilly I think there is a misunderstanding on exactly what a hero is.
A hero is not based on military service, nor is it based on gender or anything like that.
I think a hero is someone that does something that is needed without being asked and without asking for compensation in return. I could name of examples, but right now I think the two best examples for this forum would be ladies like you and Sky. Both of you come here and support the active and former servicemen alike. No one asked you to, and you havn't asked for compensation. Our servicemen, worldwide and irregardless of their nationality, need that kind of support.
So the next time you wonder what a hero is made of Jilly, go look in a mirror. 'Cause darlin', I think it fits you well. :salute:
My understanding is a little different Dusty, for these reasons.
Someone who stands before people to defend them at the likely cost of his own life is behaving in a heroic manner and is therefore a hero.
A man volunteering for such service on the battefront is therefore behaving in that heroic manner and is therefore a hero. As is a man joining the armed services under such circumstances.( At such times as ours, now!)
WW11 - the sailors volunteering for submarine service, similarly were heroes.
Take it from there.....etc. etc............
Someone who stands before people to defend them at the likely cost of his own life is behaving in a heroic manner and is therefore a hero.
A man volunteering for such service on the battefront is therefore behaving in that heroic manner and is therefore a hero. As is a man joining the armed services under such circumstances.( At such times as ours, now!)
WW11 - the sailors volunteering for submarine service, similarly were heroes.
Take it from there.....etc. etc............
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Prapor
Active member
I think soldiers are heros. Certainly here in Russia a survey already showed that people are 80% more likely to trust the word of a man in camouflage than one in a suit 
Fact.
I remember there was the trial of Colonel Vladimir Kvachkov
Retired officer of Specnaz GRU, he was accused of collaborating with several of his colleagues in an attempt to murder Anatoly Chubais, then-Minister of Energy, now in charge of the nanotechnology program, and a corrupt son of a ***** on top of that.
They said Kvachkov and three other men staged an ambush for Chubais' motorcade: laid a road bomb in its path, and then waited in the bushes with sniper rifles. A completely b******t scheme, Chubais would never come out of his armored Mercedes, and he has around three dozen heavily armed men escorting him at all times; there is no way Kvachkov and three others would be able to get through that. An I am sure as a trained Specnaz man, he'd know that. GRU does many assasinations, they know their stuff.
Kvachkov was tried four times and acquitted by jury each time... His main defense: "If we wanted to kill him, he would be dead today."
That man is our hero, at least.
Fact. I remember there was the trial of Colonel Vladimir Kvachkov
Retired officer of Specnaz GRU, he was accused of collaborating with several of his colleagues in an attempt to murder Anatoly Chubais, then-Minister of Energy, now in charge of the nanotechnology program, and a corrupt son of a ***** on top of that.
They said Kvachkov and three other men staged an ambush for Chubais' motorcade: laid a road bomb in its path, and then waited in the bushes with sniper rifles. A completely b******t scheme, Chubais would never come out of his armored Mercedes, and he has around three dozen heavily armed men escorting him at all times; there is no way Kvachkov and three others would be able to get through that. An I am sure as a trained Specnaz man, he'd know that. GRU does many assasinations, they know their stuff.
Kvachkov was tried four times and acquitted by jury each time... His main defense: "If we wanted to kill him, he would be dead today."
That man is our hero, at least.