Enigma Machines




 
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January 3rd, 2016  
JOC
 
 

Topic: Enigma Machines


Do you think the > or = 10% of German code deciphered at Bletchley Park shortened the war.
January 3rd, 2016  
JOC
 
 
I believe the code deciphered at Bletchley most defiantly helped to win - shorten the war. Why it was said that Goering may as well as given his orders to Bletchley then to those in change of the Luftwaffe. Also not to mention the detrimental effect it had on the German submarine efforts, which lets face it was their main navel attack force.
January 3rd, 2016  
I3BrigPvSk
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOC
I believe the code deciphered at Bletchley most defiantly helped to win - shorten the war. Why it was said that Goering may as well as given his orders to Bletchley then to those in change of the Luftwaffe. Also not to mention the detrimental effect it had on the German submarine efforts, which lets face it was their main navel attack force.
I believe the ability to read the German communication shorten the war. The US was also able to decipher the Japanese naval communication and that had a decisive significance during the war in the Pacific. Always better to know what the enemy is up to than working in darkness about their intentions.
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January 5th, 2016  
lljadw
 
There is no proof at all that it shortened the war .There is no proof that Enigma was responsible for the loss of additional U Boats,that Enigma saved X Allied GRT .
January 5th, 2016  
BritinAfrica
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lljadw
There is no proof at all that it shortened the war .There is no proof that Enigma was responsible for the loss of additional U Boats,that Enigma saved X Allied GRT .
As usual you are talking out of your arse
January 5th, 2016  
lljadw
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BritinAfrica
As usual you are talking out of your arse
Very convincing answer .
January 5th, 2016  
I3BrigPvSk
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lljadw
There is no proof at all that it shortened the war .There is no proof that Enigma was responsible for the loss of additional U Boats,that Enigma saved X Allied GRT .
So you don't think to have the information about the enemy's intentions is not significant?
January 5th, 2016  
lljadw
 
Which is not what I said : I said that there is no proof that Enigma (and its US equivalent Magic ?) shortened the war .

Information about the enemy's intentions is never decisive .

There is no proof that the US won at Midway because they could read Japanese code .

About the U Boats : in october /november 1942 (and later) US and British convoys were able to transport without losses men and supplies to NA for Torch . There is no proof that this was due by Enigma .

The periods that Ultra was operating did not coincide with big U Boat losses and low merchant ship losses and the periods that Ultra was out did not coincide with low U Boat losses and big merchant ship losses .

It is the same for the German Enigma service (the D Dienst) .

The success of the Torch convoys was caused by the speed of the convoys, the heavy protection of the convoys and the fact that the Germans had only few U Boats available in the region . Not by Enigma .

Only 10 % of the great Atlantic convoys was attacked (most convoys were never detected) and the losses of these 10 % was 10 %,thus in total 1 % .

A lot of convoys who were detected by the German intelligence,were never attacked .

The Allies did not lose in may/june 1940 because they could not read the German code, FC did not win the Battle of Britain because it could read the German code,etc . Overlord would have been a success even if the Germans knew, even without the Allied deception plan etc,etc.

Reading enemy's intentions is only ONE of the factors that CAN contribute to victory , and mostly it is only a secundary factor .Other factors are more important .
January 5th, 2016  
I3BrigPvSk
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lljadw
Which is not what I said : I said that there is no proof that Enigma (and its US equivalent Magic ?) shortened the war .

Information about the enemy's intentions is never decisive .

There is no proof that the US won at Midway because they could read Japanese code .

About the U Boats : in october /november 1942 (and later) US and British convoys were able to transport without losses men and supplies to NA for Torch . There is no proof that this was due by Enigma .

The periods that Ultra was operating did not coincide with big U Boat losses and low merchant ship losses and the periods that Ultra was out did not coincide with low U Boat losses and big merchant ship losses .

It is the same for the German Enigma service (the D Dienst) .

The success of the Torch convoys was caused by the speed of the convoys, the heavy protection of the convoys and the fact that the Germans had only few U Boats available in the region . Not by Enigma .

Only 10 % of the great Atlantic convoys was attacked (most convoys were never detected) and the losses of these 10 % was 10 %,thus in total 1 % .

A lot of convoys who were detected by the German intelligence,were never attacked .

The Allies did not lose in may/june 1940 because they could not read the German code, FC did not win the Battle of Britain because it could read the German code,etc . Overlord would have been a success even if the Germans knew, even without the Allied deception plan etc,etc.

Reading enemy's intentions is only ONE of the factors that CAN contribute to victory , and mostly it is only a secundary factor .Other factors are more important .
You don't get it at all. To have the information about where the enemy is or where he is moving is very significant. You are viewing this from the wrong angle. To know about the enemy's intentions prior contact will provide with the crucial information for the commanders. You view this from the facts available, but you are lacking the understanding of intelligence changed the decisions made by the commanders and the outcome of battles. The US Navy know the Japanese intentions prior Midway and that changed the outcome of the battle. Without knowing it, the US carriers might have been deployed elsewhere and Midway had been captured by the Japs without losing any ships.
January 5th, 2016  
lljadw
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by I3BrigPvSk
You don't get it at all. To have the information about where the enemy is or where he is moving is very significant. You are viewing this from the wrong angle. To know about the enemy's intentions prior contact will provide with the crucial information for the commanders. You view this from the facts available, but you are lacking the understanding of intelligence changed the decisions made by the commanders and the outcome of battles. The US Navy know the Japanese intentions prior Midway and that changed the outcome of the battle. Without knowing it, the US carriers might have been deployed elsewhere and Midway had been captured by the Japs without losing any ships.
Why would it be significant ?

Why would the outcome of the battle be changed if the USN knew the Japanese intentions ? You have NO proof for this :and you admit it ,by saying that the carriers MIGHT have been deployed elsewhere . This proofs what I am saying : there is no proof that intelligence changed the battle of Midway : there is no proof that without the breaking of the Japanese code,there would be no US carriers ,and the presence of the US carriers does not mean that US would win the battle :it was possible that Japan would destroy the US carriers .

All we know is that without the presence of the carriers,there would be no battle of Midway .

All the rest is speculation .There is no causal effect between the breaking of the Japanese code and US victory at Midway .
 


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