Enigma Machines - Page 2




 
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January 5th, 2016  
I3BrigPvSk
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lljadw
Why would it be significant ?

Why would the outcome of the battle be changed if the USN knew the Japanese intentions ? You have NO proof for this :and you admit it ,by saying that the carriers MIGHT have been deployed elsewhere . This proofs what I am saying : there is no proof that intelligence changed the battle of Midway : there is no proof that without the breaking of the Japanese code,there would be no US carriers ,and the presence of the US carriers does not mean that US would win the battle :it was possible that Japan would destroy the US carriers .

All we know is that without the presence of the carriers,there would be no battle of Midway .

All the rest is speculation .There is no causal effect between the breaking of the Japanese code and US victory at Midway .
Yes, it is. There were an American presence on Midway so it had been a battle. You still view it from the wrong angle, but you have never served nor being in a position where the intelligence change your decision to act or not to act. You are using the information we have now, but put yourself in a position in which you need to decide about what to do. Don't you want to know what your opponent is up to at this time?
January 5th, 2016  
lljadw
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by I3BrigPvSk
Yes, it is. There were an American presence on Midway so it had been a battle.


You are using the information we have now, but put yourself in a position in which you need to decide about what to do. Don't you want to know what your opponent is up to at this time?

1)Battle does not mean victory

2) Wrong question : what you need to do is not determined by what you know of the enemy's intention, but by what you have available and by what you need to do ,by what you must protect .

If Midway was essential for the US ,they would defend Midway,and it would be irrelevant if Japan would attack Midway or not .US would not defend Midway because Japan would attack Midway,but because,if they did not defend Midway, Japan would attack Midway .Thus,the US decision would not depend on what would do Japan .
January 5th, 2016  
I3BrigPvSk
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lljadw
1)Battle does not mean victory

2) Wrong question : what you need to do is not determined by what you know of the enemy's intention, but by what you have available and by what you need to do ,by what you must protect .

If Midway was essential for the US ,they would defend Midway,and it would be irrelevant if Japan would attack Midway or not .US would not defend Midway because Japan would attack Midway,but because,if they did not defend Midway, Japan would attack Midway .Thus,the US decision would not depend on what would do Japan .
You are really uneducated, aren't you? You are really funny, it's like talking to a wall. When you have the knowledge about your enemy's intentions, you can act on it and outmaneuver him or even deploy your forces to counter the intentions. This is so very basic, why do you read stuff when you cannot comprehend what you are reading. Go back and do it right.
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January 6th, 2016  
JOC
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lljadw
There is no proof at all that it shortened the war.
Enigma provided the British a large advantage in knowing what the Germans were going to do ahead of time. How could this information not prove beneficial when preparing offensive (in the case of bombing runs) or defensive (in the case of shipping). 10% of the German code was deciphered this is a high percentage, particularly since the Germans didn't know it. And your saying this didn't help benefit the war effort and shorted the war?
I agree with Brit.
January 6th, 2016  
lljadw
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOC
Enigma provided the British a large advantage in knowing what the Germans were going to do ahead of time. How could this information not prove beneficial when preparing offensive (in the case of bombing runs) or defensive (in the case of shipping). 10% of the German code was deciphered this is a high percentage, particularly since the Germans didn't know it. And your saying this didn't help benefit the war effort and shorted the war?
I agree with Brit.

Maybe you should buy new glasses : I said that there was NO proof that it shortened the war .

Those who claim that Enigma shortened the war (by how many days ? ) must proof it : would the war have lasted to 1 october 1945 without enigma ?
January 6th, 2016  
lljadw
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by I3BrigPvSk
. When you have the knowledge about your enemy's intentions, you can act on it and outmaneuver him or even deploy your forces to counter the intentions. .

Wrong : you can only outmanoeuver him if you have the forces to do it .
January 6th, 2016  
Sara
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lljadw
Which is not what I said : I said that there is no proof that Enigma (and its US equivalent Magic ?) shortened the war .

Information about the enemy's intentions is never decisive .

There is no proof that the US won at Midway because they could read Japanese code .

About the U Boats : in october /november 1942 (and later) US and British convoys were able to transport without losses men and supplies to NA for Torch . There is no proof that this was due by Enigma .

The periods that Ultra was operating did not coincide with big U Boat losses and low merchant ship losses and the periods that Ultra was out did not coincide with low U Boat losses and big merchant ship losses .

It is the same for the German Enigma service (the D Dienst) .

The success of the Torch convoys was caused by the speed of the convoys, the heavy protection of the convoys and the fact that the Germans had only few U Boats available in the region . Not by Enigma .

Only 10 % of the great Atlantic convoys was attacked (most convoys were never detected) and the losses of these 10 % was 10 %,thus in total 1 % .

A lot of convoys who were detected by the German intelligence,were never attacked .

The Allies did not lose in may/june 1940 because they could not read the German code, FC did not win the Battle of Britain because it could read the German code,etc . Overlord would have been a success even if the Germans knew, even without the Allied deception plan etc,etc.

Reading enemy's intentions is only ONE of the factors that CAN contribute to victory , and mostly it is only a secundary factor .Other factors are more important .
Quote:
Originally Posted by lljadw
Why would it be significant ?

Why would the outcome of the battle be changed if the USN knew the Japanese intentions ? You have NO proof for this :and you admit it ,by saying that the carriers MIGHT have been deployed elsewhere . This proofs what I am saying : there is no proof that intelligence changed the battle of Midway : there is no proof that without the breaking of the Japanese code,there would be no US carriers ,and the presence of the US carriers does not mean that US would win the battle :it was possible that Japan would destroy the US carriers .

All we know is that without the presence of the carriers,there would be no battle of Midway .

All the rest is speculation .There is no causal effect between the breaking of the Japanese code and US victory at Midway .
Because, as you just stated in your previous post; knowing your enemy's intentions is one of the factors that can contribute to victory. I understand that your opinion is that other factors are more important, but that doesn't change the fact that the outcome could be changed if we knew their intentions. Of course there is no absolute proof for this certain event, but you seem to agree that knowing one's intentions can affect the outcome of future events, no matter how insignificant you feel it is, it would DEFINITELY change things.
January 6th, 2016  
BritinAfrica
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lljadw
Very convincing answer .
As you are such a moronic idiot, its pointless even trying to debate with you with facts. However, the fact is, towards the end of the war losses to U Boats were virtually zero. WHY???, Because of Ultra convoy commanders knew where they were and therefore able to avoid them.

I apologise, I should not have called you a moronic idiot, you are an insult to moronic idiots everywhere.
January 6th, 2016  
lljadw
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BritinAfrica
As you are such a moronic idiot, its pointless even trying to debate with you with facts. However, the fact is, towards the end of the war losses to U Boats were virtually zero. WHY??


Because of Ultra convoy commanders knew where they were and therefore able to avoid them.

2) This is not a fact : it is your interpretation,which is wrong :at the end of the war the losses were virtually zero because the escots were to strong and it would be suicidal to attack a convoy .
January 6th, 2016  
lljadw
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sara
Because, as you just stated in your previous post; knowing your enemy's intentions is one of the factors that can contribute to victory. I understand that your opinion is that other factors are more important, but that doesn't change the fact that the outcome could be changed if we knew their intentions. Of course there is no absolute proof for this certain event, but you seem to agree that knowing one's intentions can affect the outcome of future events, no matter how insignificant you feel it is, it would DEFINITELY change things.
I disagree that it would definitively change things :there are no proofs in WWII from battles were intelligence changed the outcome .There were battles where A knew the intentions of B and lost,and there were battles where A did not know the intentions of B and won .
 


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