East V.S. West - Page 2




 
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July 30th, 2004  
dsj
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsj
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkmb101
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsj
I'll make the start. I believe than the western europeans have been the strongest military power since the time of ancient greeks.
have we forgotten the Mongols and Genghis Khan? Apparently the Mongols from the east, developed better military weapons and strategies on their conquest to create an empire throughout all of Europe and Asia.
The mongols were nothing but a bunch of barbarians. They did not invent anything except their good old bow. They learned everything from other countries. All they have is their good training, large numbers and the legendary durability which no one else was even close to. The chinese were stronger than the mongolians at the time but they were too corrupt. They were held back by the europeans and retreated. this shows that the europeans are no weaker than them.
It has to be remembered that but for a freak accident where Ghengis Khan fell off his horse and was killed, these 'barbarians' would have conquered all of mainland Europe right up to the Atlantic. In 1227AD the Mongols had just defeated a combined force of 40,000 Knights in Poland, the cream of European nobility - there was 'nothing' left to stop them laying waste to ALL of Western Europe...

From there it's very likely they would have invaded Britian and conquered that country too and also spread right down into the Iberian peninsula.
this is what exactly I said was impossible. After Gengis khan's death they countinued into europe. They were defeated by the europeans and where did all the people get the idea that there was nothing left to stop them? The europeans still had every thing left! you are not reading my posts and are making this kind of judgement?
July 30th, 2004  
Redleg
 
 
DSJ has now been temporary banned, because he has failed too many times to follow the forum rules and the warnings from me and the mods...

It does NOT have anything to do with the content of his posts!!

I'll unlock this post now, so stay on topic from now on...

Please!
July 30th, 2004  
Shadowalker
 
 
this is what exactly I said was impossible. After Gengis khan's death they countinued into europe. They were defeated by the europeans and where did all the people get the idea that there was nothing left to stop them? The europeans still had every thing left! you are not reading my posts and are making this kind of judgement?

I think what doppleganger was trying to say is that if genghis khan had not died then there was nothing to stop him as he was a better tactician than the europeans and would of won! After genghis khans death the mongols were left without a leader and the possible leaders were arguing among themselves which left the europeans time to regroup and face a weaker mongol army! If GK had not died then the mongols would of been able to press on and possibly conqour europe! I doubt if the mongols could hold it for long though as i cant see britain being conqoured and communication lines would be overstretched and the europeans would rise up and drive them out!
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July 30th, 2004  
tank_master
 
Ottoman's power was impresive until they got defeated in front of vieeena
by cristians.Until that moment,they invaded balcan countries..But the mistake they made was that they weren't able to create and manufacture new war weapons...Well,let it alone,there was another fact for fallen of Ottoman Empire..It was that all european countries were enemies of ottomans..However,ottoman's had no friend country...
However,Ottoman's could have been destroyed earlier..Beceuse,european countries couldn't agree on an invasion plan on Ottoman Empire..Beceause,all of them wanted more part's on the empire...
July 30th, 2004  
silent driller
 
 
There have always been the Cossacks, too. They were one of the fiercest fighting forces known to man for about 300 years.

http://www.cossacks.kiev.ua/
July 31st, 2004  
Doppleganger
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsj
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsj
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkmb101
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsj
I'll make the start. I believe than the western europeans have been the strongest military power since the time of ancient greeks.
have we forgotten the Mongols and Genghis Khan? Apparently the Mongols from the east, developed better military weapons and strategies on their conquest to create an empire throughout all of Europe and Asia.
The mongols were nothing but a bunch of barbarians. They did not invent anything except their good old bow. They learned everything from other countries. All they have is their good training, large numbers and the legendary durability which no one else was even close to. The chinese were stronger than the mongolians at the time but they were too corrupt. They were held back by the europeans and retreated. this shows that the europeans are no weaker than them.
It has to be remembered that but for a freak accident where Ghengis Khan fell off his horse and was killed, these 'barbarians' would have conquered all of mainland Europe right up to the Atlantic. In 1227AD the Mongols had just defeated a combined force of 40,000 Knights in Poland, the cream of European nobility - there was 'nothing' left to stop them laying waste to ALL of Western Europe...

From there it's very likely they would have invaded Britian and conquered that country too and also spread right down into the Iberian peninsula.
this is what exactly I said was impossible. After Ghengis khan's death they continued into europe. They were defeated by the europeans and where did all the people get the idea that there was nothing left to stop them? The europeans still had every thing left! you are not reading my posts and are making this kind of judgement?
Not right away. They had Europe at their mercy and went home because the Great Khan had died. It's true they came back later and the momentum was lost but at that time Europe was ripe for the slaughter. Christianity was in very great danger of being reduced to a mere footnote in history.

Perhaps some reading is in order:

http://campus.northpark.edu/history/...Europe.CP.html

Allow me to quote from this source:

"In March of 1241, it began. King Boleslav V (the Brave) of Poland was the first to meet the thundering Asian cavalry archers at the city of Krakow. The battle was a disaster, ending in the death of Boleslav and the shattering of his army, the remnants of which fled west to the city of Liegnitz, where the Teutonic Knights (a German Christian military/crusading order founded about a hundred years after the First Crusade) were desperately trying to form an army to stop the Asian advance. Khaidu, leader of the Mongol northern army, led his forces in hot pursuit. On April 9, in Anno Domini 1241, Christendom watched in horror as its proud knighthood, wearing the cross of Christ, was utterly annihilated at the hands of Khaidu. The ruler of Silesia, Grand Prince Henry II, was killed in the battle. The nearby realm of Silesia was swiftly ransacked, but the Bohemian Army finally stopped Khaidu's advance. Undeterred in the least, he merely headed south, for Hungary. The last great hope to stop the Mongols was gone, and the way lay open into Central Europe."

http://historymedren.about.com/libra...olinvasion.htm

http://www.io.com/~tenzil/rpgs/invasion.htm

So to reiterate again. The Mongols initially left Europe because the Great Khan had died and tradition demanded they return home to their capital to appoint a successor and NOT because any European armies had repulsed them.
July 31st, 2004  
jen.parabellum
 
 
To be fair - both East and West, each to their own, have had their own technological advantages against one another. I believe as does mostly everyone else, the greatest General the world has ever seen was Alexander the Great, who came from Macedonia.

Quote:
The family essentially was split apart irreparably when Philip married a woman named Cleopatra, a Macedonian. At the wedding banquet, Cleopatra's father made a remark about Philip fathering a "legitmate" heir, i.e., one that was pure Macedonian. Alexand er took exception and threw his cup at the man, and some sources say Alexander killed him. Enraged, Philip stood up and charged at Alexander, only to trip and fall on his face in his drunken stupor. Alexander, rather upset at the scene, is said to have shouted:

"Here is the man who was making ready to cross from Europe to Asia, and who cannot even cross from one table to another without losing his balance."
Source: the great home of Alexander...

He ruled Macedonia while his father was at war and even had his first kill at age 16.

Now Alexander the Great's father Philip created the following:

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Philip's military innovations created the fighting power that Alexander inherited, making it a force to be reckoned with. Philip introduced the 12 cubit (6 meter) sarissa, a wooden pike with metal tip, for use by his infantry in the phalanx. The sarissa, when held upright by the rear rows of the phalanx (there were usually eight rows), helped hide maneuvers behind the phalanx from the view of the enemy. When held horizontal by the front rows of the phalanx, it was a rather brutal weapon. People could be run through from 20 feet away, giving quite an advantage to the phalanx in hand-to-hand combat.
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Alexander fought with the finest military machine that Asia or Greece had ever seen, primarily because of the amount of time and effort spent on maneuvers.

In addition to the basic phalanx, Philip and Alexander used light auxiliaries, archers, a siege train, and a cavalry. With all of these working well together, both Philip and Alexander rarely, if ever, lost any battle.
August 13th, 2004  
godofthunder9010
 
 
Quote:
The mongols were nothing but a bunch of barbarians. They did not invent anything except their good old bow. They learned everything from other countries. All they have is their good training, large numbers and the legendary durability which no one else was even close to. The chinese were stronger than the mongolians at the time but they were too corrupt. They were held back by the europeans and retreated. this shows that the europeans are no weaker than them.
Barbarians, yes. Large numbers, no. One of the greatest ficticious rumors about the Mongols is the idea that they had overwhelming numbers. They almost never had the numerical advantage. It is quite interesting how Ghengis and company managed to play Song Dynasty against the Chin, and ultimately defeated both by getting them to wage war on each other.

Also, the Mongols did not "retreat" from Europe. There was a LOT more to it than that. Now, from a PURELY EUROPEAN perspective, I'm sure the Europeans decided that they were in some way responsible for stopping the Mongols. Fact is, they DIDN'T stop them, they Europe just got damn lucky. I already posted the details of this in "Which culture circle possessed the greatest military power?" and I'm much to lazy to repeat it all.