Dowding's Costly Blunder in the Battle of France - Page 10




 
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November 25th, 2011  
42RM
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS
You are talking like real war is the same as a simple computer game. Pick some here, move there and kill them all. Simple isn't it?
This self-proclaimed great strategist, who apparently never had a pair of boots on, has clearly proven that the last idiot is not dead yet. It surprised me that as a "civilian" you can read a book or two and see a few war movies and then think you are an expert in warfare. I've seen emergency 911 on the telly many times but does that make me a paramedic expert?

I would however add that we on this forum have people who donít have a military background but is definitely intelligent enough to understand the complexity of warfare.

His logic and insight are in line with an immature child. I wonít even call him an armchair-general. Probably more a wheelchair-general as something is clearly disabled.

Now samneanderthal, try to understand this:

A dominating characteristic of most of all military operations is uncertainty. Decision making in an uncertain environment is one of the recurrent problems of military world affairs. To provide courses of action in real-world settings (by considering uncertainty) the planner must take into account the fact that actions may have several different outcomes. Planning military operations under uncertainty provides unexpected contingency plans.
November 25th, 2011  
LeEnfield
 
 
The Swordfish Aircraft......I think that this person is forgetting that the Fleet Arm came under the control of the RAF till just a couple of years before the outbreak of WW2. The RAF was not interested in the Navies problem and concentrated on their own hence the the Fleet Arm pilots were almost suicide jockeys for most of the war with the crap they had to fly.
November 25th, 2011  
BritinBritain
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 42RM
This self-proclaimed great strategist, who apparently never had a pair of boots on, has clearly proven that the last idiot is not dead yet. It surprised me that as a "civilian" you can read a book or two and see a few war movies and then think you are an expert in warfare. I've seen emergency 911 on the telly many times but does that make me a paramedic expert?

I would however add that we on this forum have people who donít have a military background but is definitely intelligent enough to understand the complexity of warfare.

His logic and insight are in line with an immature child. I wonít even call him an armchair-general. Probably more a wheelchair-general as something is clearly disabled.

Now samneanderthal, try to understand this:

A dominating characteristic of most of all military operations is uncertainty. Decision making in an uncertain environment is one of the recurrent problems of military world affairs. To provide courses of action in real-world settings (by considering uncertainty) the planner must take into account the fact that actions may have several different outcomes. Planning military operations under uncertainty provides unexpected contingency plans.
I'd be interested to hear exactly what military experience he has, if any.
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November 25th, 2011  
George
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 84RFK
You may have confused the battlecruiser Gneisenau with the armoured cruiser Gneisenau here.
While the battlecruiser Gneisenau was comissioned in 1938 the latter was sunk in 1914.

And by 1940 the battlecruisers Scharnhorst and Gneisenau was far from crippled, on the contrary, they were formidable by all means.
Add the fact that both ships were equipped with top modern gun control systems and this, assisted by the radar, was instrumental in the sinking of both Renown and Glorious.
The Ardent and the Acasta was hammered to pieces by direct fire from both main and secondary batteries and really stood little chance of survival.
Hard to say what he meant. @ 1st I thought it was a comment about the German Navy in general, considering the losses of the campaigne. Or...he could have been refering to the Scharnhorst being torpedoed @ the end of the action where Glorious & the 2 Destroyers were sunk.
November 25th, 2011  
samneanderthal
 
High 84RFK,
I said the crippled German navy, which was indeed quite crippled by the time the Glorious and its 2 escorting destroyers were sunk.
It is a shame that the huge allied navy (not only the huge British navy) allowed a carrier to be sunk by the German navyīs cannon, which by this time had very few ships in service. Losing many of the few experienced pilots to navy cannon cannot be justified at all.
Somehow you seem to accept the Germans as superhumans, capable of sending 1,000 planes to Norway or Greece in short term, capable of sending a carrier to the bottom with cannon, etc, and regard the British as poor unprepared victims. The fact is that the the British military had formidable resources and wasted them time after time, excelling only at evacuations.
November 25th, 2011  
BritinBritain
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by George
Hard to say what he meant. @ 1st I thought it was a comment about the German Navy in general, considering the losses of the campaigne. Or...he could have been refering to the Scharnhorst being torpedoed @ the end of the action where Glorious & the 2 Destroyers were sunk.
Quite frankly its a waste of time even trying to engage him in sensible conversation, especially as he keeps repeating absolute nonsense.

He never did answer my question as to his military service.
November 25th, 2011  
samneanderthal
 
If you find my arguments absurd, childish, boring, unfounded or farfetched why waste time in this thread? Start a thread praising Churchill, Dowding, Mountbatten, Ritchie, Motgomery, Auchinleck, Wavell and all the great British leaders of WW II that you revere. Just remember that in spite of 5 million Indians and a greater number of Brits, Canadians, Australians, New Zelanders, South Africans, Free French, Poles, etc, The third largest industry in the world and 31 billion dollars in aid they could not kick Germany out of Africa nor Japan out of Burma without American troops, pilots, etc, and while Germany was fighting the Soviets and Japan the Chinese and Americans.
As you can tell my military experience is below nihil.
November 25th, 2011  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by samneanderthal
High 84RFK,
I said the crippled German navy, which was indeed quite crippled by the time the Glorious and its 2 escorting destroyers were sunk.
It is a shame that the huge allied navy (not only the huge British navy) allowed a carrier to be sunk by the German navyīs cannon, which by this time had very few ships in service. Losing many of the few experienced pilots to navy cannon cannot be justified at all.
Somehow you seem to accept the Germans as superhumans, capable of sending 1,000 planes to Norway or Greece in short term, capable of sending a carrier to the bottom with cannon, etc, and regard the British as poor unprepared victims. The fact is that the the British military had formidable resources and wasted them time after time, excelling only at evacuations.
Ok I think think this will be my last shot at this because in reality we are just repeating the same things over and over.

Lets assume you are standing in the street and I walk up and kick you square in the nuts would you say that it was your incompetence that lead to you being curled up on the ground wondering wtf just happened?

Then while you are on the ground would you agree that it is your incompetence that I managed to get a few more kicks in because you did not have a baseball bat on you even though you could have afforded one at the time?

Would you describe your friends as incompetent because they weren't there?

The fact of the matter is that for 3 years the Germans were on the offensive, the knew the plan, were trained to execute that plan and had the equipment to execute the plan, they were not supermen they were prepared.

The Allies on the other started horribly, suffered great losses and stumbled around in the dark because they were not prepared until they found a counter to the German plan and from that point on they were prepared.

People seem to assume that it was Hitler who built the Germany army but the fact is that WW1 and the Treaty of Versailles built the German army, it was the Weimar Republic that was designing tanks and submarines in Russia as early as 1922 and developed rockets and artillery in secret.
November 25th, 2011  
samneanderthal
 
Actually the British were on the offensive in Norway and the Germans reacting, but kicked their balls anyway and with a much smaller navy.
Actually, the British knew about the German secret in the USSR and did nothing. As they did nothing when the USSR invaded Poland, but they did run to Stalin's help when Hitler betrayed his accomplice and supplier on credit.

As for stumbling in the dark, they shouldn't have, since the Poles broke the German code for them, so they had much better intelligence than the Germans did.

The idea that Britain was a defenseless maid in 1939 is quite absurd. Britain produced far more petrol engines than Germany did, had huge resources and population, the British had Radar, the best navy (including carriers!), the best fighter, the best tank, the best bolt action rifle (10 rounds vs 5 of the Germans),etc, and good allies that it did not support and use properly. Yet the Germans bested them in Norway, France, Greece, etc, simply because they had better leaders.
November 25th, 2011  
LeEnfield
 
 
HMS Glorious, now there was a well known dispute between the Captain of the ship and the Flight Commander of the aircraft. It would appear that the flight commander argued with the captain and wanted some of his aircraft armed and flying. The captain of the carrier who had only operated Battleships before this command thought it was all a waste time and that he had been demoted by having to captain the Carrier. The argument was that heated that the Flight Commander was put under arrest and was facing a Court Martial, then shortly afterwards the Carrier came under attack from surface ships and as all the aircraft were below decks there is little they could do.
 


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