Douglas Bader mystery - Page 6




 
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November 29th, 2011  
BritinAfrica
 
 
Whatever the truth, its a damn good story.

In all honesty I hope he does find proof that will vindicate him.
November 29th, 2011  
James Christie
 
its a good story for sure but I very much doubt its anything more!
November 29th, 2011  
MontyB
 
 
I think the most important bits of information for me are his comments on the Liverpool Blitz (Chapter 9), he talks of heavy raids that began to diminished in strength while he was there, this to me would indicate a period after May 1941 but before January 1942 when the last raid took place.

Given that he was shot down on the 9th August 1941 I would suggest that there are 4 months May-August 1941 where his story has a far better fit than 1942.
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November 29th, 2011  
James Christie
 
true - but he also talks of many american servicemen in and around the hotel which would be well into 1942. there's a lot of confusion on dates. its one reason that I don't have much confidence in his story; as others have said elsewhere, he doesn't come across as a reliable witness. the other reason why idont think it could have been bader is also timing. reach for the sky talks of bader as wing leader at tangmere in spring and summer of 41 as being forced to accept that he would have take a rest just before he was lost over france. this seems at odds with the idea of him being idle in a liverpudlian hotel for a week or so
November 29th, 2011  
MontyB
 
 
Not necessarily the lead elements US 34th Division arrived in England on the 15th January 1942 and the remaining elements arrived in Ireland 26th January 1942, also by this time the 8th Air Force was arriving in the UK.

Ask any policeman very few people come across as reliable witnesses, 10 people can see the 1 event in 10 different ways.

I don't doubt that his dates are screwed up in fact I would be surprised if they weren't given the length of time we are talking about which is why I am less interested in his time line but rather finding one that the bulk of his story would fit into, if that exists then we can look at seeing whether the story is possible within that time frame.
November 29th, 2011  
James Christie
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
Not necessarily the lead elements US 34th Division arrived in England on the 15th January 1942 and the remaining elements arrived in Ireland 26th January 1942, also by this time the 8th Air Force was arriving in the UK.

Ask any policeman very few people come across as reliable witnesses, 10 people can see the 1 event in 10 different ways.
I've seen numbers quoted on the build up of american s and while some hq staff did arrive early on, most of the bulk didn't start arriving until well into 1942. by the way, sources seem to indicate the 34th were entirely in ulster. om fairly sure there were only a relatively few us serviceman in mainland england until well into may/ june 42, not the large numbers williams is talking about. williams also talks of resentment building up with the locals and numerous servicemen. this sounds like late 1942 onwards, not january and certainly not summer 1941.

the point on witnesses is well made and another reason to doubt a story uncorroborated anywhere else!
November 29th, 2011  
James Christie
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB

I don't doubt that his dates are screwed up in fact I would be surprised if they weren't given the length of time we are talking about which is why I am less interested in his time line but rather finding one that the bulk of his story would fit into, if that exists then we can look at seeing whether the story is possible within that time frame.
its hard as we clearly have memories that have got jumbled, as one would expect. the key clues to dates would seem to indicate either earlier in 41 when bader was openly at stalag 3, or later in 42, when bader was at colditz. either way it doesn't seem to work with the alleged window when bader was at lamsdorf
November 29th, 2011  
MontyB
 
 
I would lean toward the earlier of the two dates, I am not worried about the argument that "tensions were rising with American servicemen" as that is some thing that is known to have happened later in the piece and I suspect he remembered American servicemen and just added the other bit as they were linked.

Essentially I think we should be looking at the period late 1941 - March 1942, I would be inclined to drop any bits of his story that can be linked to multiple time lines and just look at whether there was a point he could have met Bader towards the end of the Liverpool Blitz.
November 30th, 2011  
James Christie
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
I would lean toward the earlier of the two dates, I am not worried aboutthe argument that "tensions were rising with American servicemen" as that is some thing that is know to have happened later in the piece and I suspect he remembered American servicemen and just added the other bit as they were linked.

Essentially I think we should be looking at the period late 1941 - March 1942, I would be inclined to drop any bits of his story that can be linked to multiple time lines and just look at whether there was a point he could have met Bader towards the end of the Liverpool Blitz.
what I've read of the story has a lot of thay sort of mixed memory its to be expected but does mean you really can't depend on any facts on isolation. late 41 to march 42 has bader at stalag luft 3 causing trouble with the germans and openly amongst raf colleagues. I can't realistically see there is any way the liverpool trip fits. I come back to known facts again. bader had no need to go to liverpool for leg work, the description of the man at the hotel is wrong, the character doesn't fit and noone else despite years of trying has ever come up with anyone in britain or germany that has a scrap of a hint that it ever happened. I think occam would class his all in the impossible segment!
November 30th, 2011  
MontyB
 
 
To be honest I think the only way to narrow down the odds on this one would be to look in depth at Bader's war time movements between 1941 and 1943, I do not think we will be able to find any corroborating evidence from others as the passage of time has pretty much eliminated anyone that may possibly be able to verify any part of the story and even if anyone was still capable of doing so they would have similar memory issues.

At a guess I would say that the only reliable source at this point would be the MOD or German war time records and unfortunately I am not sure where you would start on that one.
 


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