Douglas Bader mystery - Page 3




 
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November 26th, 2011  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by James Christie
very interesting. there's a map of lamsdord on that site which shows the camp subdivided into various sections which supports the idea that there might be an raf area. one story I've found said the raf section was in the middle "as the germans thought the raf men were more ontelligent and so more likely to escape" and there is onw section surrounded on all sides in the map


http://www.pegasusarchive.org/pow/S3...St_344_Map.htm


britinafrica - can't see letter adds anything. there clearly is a question whether it did or even could have happened and the rest is just supposition
There certainly had to be an RAF presence at the camp as I am reading several of their stories but so far I have seen nothing over the rank of Warrant Officer.

One report claims the RAF personnel in the camp numbered 600 which put them in the minority as far as the services went.
November 26th, 2011  
James Christie
 
pilot officer chisholm there in june 42 according to that link.....

I'm sure raf were a minority group but it scotches the theory that bader shouldn't have been there and so it was part of some cover up.

I agree that there is a window of doubt in baders whereabouts but that's all there is as far as I can see.
November 26th, 2011  
BritinAfrica
 
 
There are a few posts from Ken Williams at http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread292208/pg1 and of course from those who support him and those who are basically calling him a liar.

I have an open mind on the matter, could his story be true? Possibly. Could his story be fabrication? Again, possibly, but to what end what did he hope to get from it? Was he mistaken? Possibly.
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November 26th, 2011  
Alan P
 
I should imagine that even after measuring up for new false legs they would be very sore on the legs stumps for quite a while. Therefore German Doctors would surely have assisted in making them more comfortable
I did read a story a few years back of a British POW who was Douglas Baders batman come helper at Colditz. He was granted repatriation, but Bader put a stop to it saying he had to stick it out the same has him (Douglas Bader)
That does not sound as though Bader was sent to England to get a new pair of legs fitted.
November 26th, 2011  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BritinAfrica
There are a few posts from Ken Williams at http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread292208/pg1 and of course from those who support him and those who are basically calling him a liar.

I have an open mind on the matter, could his story be true? Possibly. Could his story be fabrication? Again, possibly, but to what end what did he hope to get from it? Was he mistaken? Possibly.
I would agree and the few threads I have read on the issue seemed very polarised, personally I do find it hard to believe and if I was to take a guess I would probably put it down to a "big fish" story that he lost control of, he wouldn't be the first person to embellish his past nor would he be the last.

That being said there are some parts of the story that appear true/accurate so I would put it in the category of "needs more validation".

I can't understand why people are getting on his case about it though no matter what we think it is a story that none of us can prove or disprove and he has put in the service so let him have his memories who knows maybe one day he will find the missing proof.
November 26th, 2011  
James Christie
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
I would agree and the few threads I have read on the issue seemed very polarised, personally I do find it hard to believe and if I was to take a guess I would probably put it down to a "big fish" story that he lost control of, he wouldn't be the first person to embellish his past nor would he be the last.

That being said there are some parts of the story that appear true/accurate so I would put it in the category of "needs more validation".
I agree. reading the ats pages I get a sense that kenneth williams is coming from a position of wounded pride whereas most of the anti argument seems logical which makes me wonder why he gets so angry - theres a lot of ranting and a lot of his posts have been deleted or banned. I think there is a lot of mileage in the suggestion that he has told everyone for years how he did this and when he found out he couldnt have he's gone looking for a way to explain it. the letter britinafrica quoted seems to show a closed mind
November 26th, 2011  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by James Christie
I agree. reading the ats pages I get a sense that kenneth williams is coming from a position of wounded pride whereas most of the anti argument seems logical which makes me wonder why he gets so angry - theres a lot of ranting and a lot of his posts have been deleted or banned. I think there is a lot of mileage in the suggestion that he has told everyone for years how he did this and when he found out he couldnt have he's gone looking for a way to explain it. the letter britinafrica quoted seems to show a closed mind
I can certainly understand how he could get angry, he is trying convey his story and people are calling him a liar after a while frustration sets in and then anger usually follows.

As for closed minds well lets face it most online arguments end up with two sets of closed minds as each side becomes more and more entrenched and less and less open to change.

I haven't read the ATS thread, I started but it just seemed to become bogged down in over analysis of phrasing and intricate details which were for the most part irrelevant.

So for as much as I do not think he has proven his case beyond doubt I don't think it was shot down either, it just got side tracked into personalities.
November 26th, 2011  
James Christie
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
I can certainly understand how he could get angry, he is trying convey his story and people are calling him a liar after a while frustration sets in and then anger usually follows.

As for closed minds well lets face it most online arguments end up with two sets of closed minds as each side becomes more and more entrenched and less and less open to change.

I haven't read the ATS thread, I started but it just seemed to become bogged down in over analysis of phrasing and intricate details which were for the most part irrelevant.

So for as much as I do not think he has proven his case beyond doubt I don't think it was shot down either, it just got side tracked into personalities.
certainly the case. the last few pages seem to get away from the personality clash and more on facts though. there is a clear disproof of a lot of the things ken williams cites such as secret papers. I'm happy to question accepted versions but this one really doesn't seem to have anything behind it at all

I can see why people would be upset by the story. bader is still a heroic figure and to mix him up with some sort of sculduggery could offend
November 26th, 2011  
MontyB
 
 
Yes buts lets be honest by page 5 it was pretty much a poisoned thread there was no coming back.

In my opinion I would believe the story quite happily if I could understand one thing, why would the Germans have sent a man who was nothing but a thorn in their side home for a couple of weeks, if I could answer that I would be happy.

I don't have a problem with his timeline as much as I don't understand the reason.
November 26th, 2011  
James Christie
 
true. I agree - opportunity is possible but method and motive are far more doubtful. it wouldn't make a case for prosecution.

with these things it virtually impossible to prove one way or other. the only thing you can do is rate as probable or improbable. to my mind the balance on this is firmly towards improbable.
 


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