Douglas Bader mystery - Page 2




 
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November 26th, 2011  
James Christie
 
can't say I buy the theory on the hotel. I looked it up and it was right in the middle of liverpool which is hardly out of the way and apparently hotel staff were being let in on the secret? doesn't add up. mi had safe houses so thered have been no need. I agree with le enfield. bader made a lot of enemies as well as admirers and if anything funny had gone on someone would have said something by now. I thonk this story is hokum
November 26th, 2011  
MontyB
 
 
But that is my point, at the time he was meant to be in Britain he had "disappeared" for 10 day into solitary confinement.

So IF this story was true I think it would be feasible that:
1) He is seen going into solitary.
2) He is then smuggled by aircraft to Britain for the medical work.
3) He is flown back in time to be released from solitary.

But before people start accusing me of supporting this story please note I started it with a big IF as I can not understand what circumstances they would do this for a POW.

However as you have already said officers were not required to work and why was he at an "other ranks" camp which is what STALAG V111B was further to this RAF personnel were generally held by the Luftwaffe at STALAG Luft camps, the only thing special about STALAG V111B. is that it is right next door to an airfield.

So as I have mentioned previously even though I have strong doubts that this event ever happened it does have a window of opportunity matching the time it was meant to have occurred.
November 26th, 2011  
James Christie
 
y
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
But that is my point, at the time he was meant to be in Britain he had "disappeared" for 10 day into solitary confinement.

So IF this story was true I think it would be feasible that:
1) He is seen going into solitary.
2) He is then smuggled by aircraft to Britain for the medical work.
3) He is flown back in time to be released from solitary.

But before people start accusing me of supporting this story please note I started it with a big IF as I can not understand what circumstances they would do this for a POW.

However as you have already said officers were not required to work and why was he at an "other ranks" camp which is what STALAG V111B was further to this RAF personnel were generally held by the Luftwaffe at STALAG Luft camps, the only thing special about STALAG V111B. is that it is right next door to an airfield.

So as I have mentioned previously even though I have strong doubts that this event ever happened it does have a window of opportunity matching the time it was meant to have occurred.
point taken; though of course people in solitary weren't necessarily completely incommunicado so even given a p window it doesn't follow that bader was totally out of sight to the rest of the camp.

I've read the arguments on the ats site and there's a lot of interesting stuff. the point was made that in 42 the germans were refusing to cooperate with repatriation so why tgey should make a special case for one oficer who wasn't in any critical condition doesn't add up. from their point of view why make things easier for someine so determoned to make their lives dufficult? really doesn't make any sense.

I've been wondering about your point on stalag viiib as its a good question. from some limited digging it seems that it was a big camp with a lot of different separate parts. there seems to have been an raf section and bader wasn't the only officer there or to have tried to escape by getting on a work party

there's some here about about a p/o chisholm doing tge same thing:


http://www.conscript-heroes.com/esca...om-Germany.htm
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November 26th, 2011  
MontyB
 
 
True but again it has a hazy area:
Why was he in Lansdorf in the first place, it was a camp for army personnel not air force and why was he (a disabled officer in a work detail).

If that part can be explained clearly then I would say there is nothing to the story but until that time I can see a small window of opportunity that it is a real story.

Now to play devils advocate, hotels have staff even small ones why have none of them raised this or supported the story?
November 26th, 2011  
James Christie
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
True but again it has a hazy area:
Why was he in Lansdorf in the first place, it was a camp for army personnel not air force and why was he (a disabled officer in a work detail).

If that part can be explained clearly then I would say there is nothing to the story but until that time I can see a small window of opportunity that it is a real story.

Now to play devils advocate, hotels have staff even small ones why have none of them raised this or supported the story?

the piece on chisholm seems to indicate stalag viiib being a large place spread over a number of sites one of which was a raf section. and bader doesn't seem to have been on a work detail but enveigled himself on it.

I agree that other hotwl staff should have come forward surely. the ats site suggests it was some sort of joke played on the lad who said he was helping bader which makws sense
November 26th, 2011  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by James Christie
the piece on chisholm seems to indicate stalag viiib being a large place spread over a number of sites one of which was a raf section.
That is true however the RAF section was not constructed until 1943 and those transferred there were mainly non-commissioned RAF personnel from Luft STALAG III the new camp became STALAG Luft VIII-B.

Interestingly enough though the medical facilities at STALAG VIII were considered among the best within the camp system.
November 26th, 2011  
James Christie
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
That is true however the RAF section was not constructed until 1943 and those transferred there were mainly non-commissioned RAF personnel from Luft STALAG III the new camp became STALAG Luft VIII-B.

Interestingly enough though the medical facilities at STALAG VIII were considered among the best within the camp system.
true but there seems to have been an raf section prior to that. p/o chisholm was sent there in june 42 according to the link I posted


I found this on the hospital facility and this raises a question. if bader was already at the place with the finest medical facilites in germany......why would they need yo go to all the trouble of getting him to the uk and back? again it doesn't make sense

http://www.lamsdorf.com/medical-matters.html
November 26th, 2011  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by James Christie
true but there seems to have been an raf section prior to that. p/o chisholm was sent there in june 42 according to the link I posted


I found this on the hospital facility and this raises a question. if bader was already at the place with the finest medical facilites in germany......why would they need yo go to all the trouble of getting him to the uk and back? again it doesn't make sense

http://www.lamsdorf.com/medical-matters.html
I agree I still can not find a reason for this event to have occurred but given the time frame offered there is as I have said a window of opportunity.

Here is something interesting, the red cross inspection report for 8 August 1942, it reports 1 man under arrest for insubordination...

Quote:
One prisoner was under arrest, serving a sentence of ten days for insubordination towards his British superior. He is treated according to the Geneva Convention.
http://www.pegasusarchive.org/pow/cBab21_Red2.htm
November 26th, 2011  
BritinAfrica
 
 
This is a letter written by Kenneth Williams,

Alex Ross was indeed acting as Bader's batman whilst in Colditz and yes,
Alex was advised by the Germans that he was eligible for repatriation, being
a medic and a non-combatant. It is also true that Bader refused to allow
Alex to come home and told him in no uncertain terms that he (Alex) was his
"Lackey" and he would be staying in Colditz to look after him.

I was hoping to speak to Alex Ross through a very good contact very early in
my investigations but he died before this happened and his story is now
silent for ever. It is well documented however, that whilst in Colditz and
when the war was over, Bader treated him very shabbily.

The story of my meeting with Bader in Liverpool in 1942 does not
automatically assume that he had been "Repatriated." The whole thrust of my
story is based rightly or wrongly on MY reasoning that he made this short
visit for some purpose that I am not au faix with, but have put forward my
theory that he came back to have new legs organized and then, according to
the generally accepted story, was later liberated by the Americans when his
war ended as a prisoner in Colditz.

If Bader had been "repatriated" in 1942 (as Hodgkinson was in 1944) as your
forum member apparently assumes, then there would not be any reason for the whole drama of The Bader Enigma! His repatriation would have been widely publicized and Alex Ross would have in my view, not automatically have been included as part and parcel of any Bader repatriation to England.

Bader's Liverpool excursion was in MY view very obviously an arrangement
made between those in very high places as an expedient and I just happened
to be on the spot at that time.

Your members should fully understand that that whilst there is no question
whatsoever that Bader DID come to Liverpool in 1942 as I proclaim, but why
he came is just as big a mystery to me as it might be to them to fully
understand why these remarkable events took place.


Best Wishes
November 26th, 2011  
James Christie
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
I agree I still can not find a reason for this event to have occurred but given the time frame offered there is as I have said a window of opportunity.

Here is something interesting, the red cross inspection report for 8 August 1942, it reports 1 man under arrest for insubordination...



http://www.pegasusarchive.org/pow/cBab21_Red2.htm
very interesting. there's a map of lamsdord on that site which shows the camp subdivided into various sections which supports the idea that there might be an raf area. one story I've found said the raf section was in the middle "as the germans thought the raf men were more ontelligent and so more likely to escape" and there is onw section surrounded on all sides in the map


http://www.pegasusarchive.org/pow/S3...St_344_Map.htm


britinafrica - can't see letter adds anything. there clearly is a question whether it did or even could have happened and the rest is just supposition
 


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