The Dambusters - Page 6




 
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March 19th, 2015  
Yossarian
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
Yet we hung Germans for doing exactly the same and pandered to Stalins wishes who was as bad as if not worse than Hitler. Once again you are adopting the philosophy that because we were the "good guys" whatever bad we did was justified and that seems to be the Wests modus-operandi for the last 100 years and the reason the world is still in a mess today.
The victor gets the spoils , among them is the right to pen the scrolls of history.
March 20th, 2015  
JOC
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
Yet we hung Germans for doing exactly the same and pandered to Stalins wishes who was as bad as if not worse than Hitler. Once again you are adopting the philosophy that because we were the "good guys" whatever bad we did was justified and that seems to be the Wests modus-operandi for the last 100 years and the reason the world is still in a mess today.


I disagree from a historical standpoint. During the war Hitler killed far more than innocents than Stalin easily by greater than an order of magnitude. The topic is constrained to the WW2 period and in the case of Hitler and Stalin the war on the eastern front. Fact Stalin cleaned up his act to a great extend relaxing both religious and political persecution during the war to drum up popular support which he desperately needed for his great patriotic war. If he didnít the Soviet forces wouldnít have fought as hard as they did against the hated and feared enemy. This made Stalin and the NKVD the lesser of the 2 evils during the war. Also most Soviets hoped that the reforms that took place during the war would continue into peace time period. Unfortunately they were in for a rude surprise. As for the allies I donít even know how you can begin to compare the allies to the Naziís, the Wehrmacht or the SS. The Nazi were responsible for a minimum of 25 million murders of which greater than 99% occurred in less than 5 years. This does not include the million killed by bombing, shelling, or other misc losses of war. The allies fought a no quarters given or asked for war in which their military actions resulted in the deaths of many civilians. Of this there can be no dought. Do you think they could have defeated the Germans by playing patty cake, this was total war on a scale such as the world had never seen? I do agree some poor decisions were made such as Dresden and Monte Casino. The history is well documented with the fog clearing on the Soviet history it has little to do with victors but much to do with research.
March 20th, 2015  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOC
I disagree from a historical standpoint. During the war Hitler killed far more than innocents than Stalin easily by greater than an order of magnitude. The topic is constrained to the WW2 period and in the case of Hitler and Stalin the war on the eastern front. Fact Stalin cleaned up his act to a great extend relaxing both religious and political persecution during the war to drum up popular support which he desperately needed for his great patriotic war. If he didnít the Soviet forces wouldnít have fought as hard as they did against the hated and feared enemy. This made Stalin and the NKVD the lesser of the 2 evils during the war. Also most Soviets hoped that the reforms that took place during the war would continue into peace time period. Unfortunately they were in for a rude surprise. As for the allies I donít even know how you can begin to compare the allies to the Naziís, the Wehrmacht or the SS. The Nazi were responsible for a minimum of 25 million murders of which greater than 99% occurred in less than 5 years. This does not include the million killed by bombing, shelling, or other misc losses of war. The allies fought a no quarters given or asked for war in which their military actions resulted in the deaths of many civilians. Of this there can be no dought. Do you think they could have defeated the Germans by playing patty cake, this was total war on a scale such as the world had never seen? I do agree some poor decisions were made such as Dresden and Monte Casino. The history is well documented with the fog clearing on the Soviet history it has little to do with victors but much to do with research.
Hang on a sec you are saying it was perfectly alright to bomb the elderly, women and children in German and Japanese cities night and day because those civilians were supporting the axis war effort by growing food, going to work etc. and there should be no repercussions what so ever yet it is also perfectly alright to hang the likes of Jodl for doing exactly the same thing. I am not for an instant claiming that the allies should have anything differently I am just pointing out that we are deluding ourselves and lying to the world by claiming to have been the virtuous bunch of choir boys WW2 history tries to paint the allies as. The problem is that this line of thinking continues through to today where around the world we are busily destabilising countries that don't agree with us and funding despotic ones that do all the while claiming god is on our side and the other side is the devil incarnate.
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March 20th, 2015  
JOC
 
 
I do agree that the type of thinking and warfare that was needed to defeat Nazi Germany and Japan is not warranted today. I think the situation has become largly political. In some case I believe the present day coalition (allies) are at times justified say the airstrikes against ISIS and the fight against Al-Qaeda. Other times perhaps we'd be better to mind our own business. Like in Viet Nam where we supported a dictatorial regime. Not to slight any veterans who served there.
March 20th, 2015  
BritinAfrica
 
 
The only thing I will say on this.

I don't care who you are, if your home or family are attacked, you will want to fight back by any means. At that time the only way Britain could fight back was bomber command.

My Grandmother and two aunts who were not engaged on any war work were almost killed by German bombers, my grandfather a WW1 vet was in the Home Guard patrolling the local gas works, he too was almost killed during an air raid.

Here is a map of the bombs dropped on London.

http://bombsight.org/#9/51.4591/0.3804

As for the fire bombing of Japan, I give as much a damn for the Japanese as they gave the people they over run.

Group Captain Leonard Cheshire VC was an observer when an Atom bomb was dropped on Japan. Years later he was in Japan, a Japanese reporter asked him what it was like to be a war criminal.Its a pity Group Captain Cheshire didn't flatten him
March 20th, 2015  
I3BrigPvSk
 
 
The bombing of German cities was a necessity to reduce the industrial capacity in Germany. What we need need to consider is the technology in the 1940s, they could not hit military targets without hitting something else. The British tried in the beginning of the war, but they failed. The Americans tried the same and failed. The failure caused a huge amount of casualties. The allied changed the approach and viewed the civilians as a legit target and much easier to hit.

In addition to this, there is a huge academic difference between when atrocities are a policy and when they occur in the heat of war. Hence, the Nazi KZ' can never be compared with the camps for the Americans with a Japanese ancestry, nor can the behavior of German forces and Japanese forces be compared with how the allied behaved. thus, the allied weren't angels and they reacted to what they experienced.

We also need to differentiate between the Soviets and the Western allied when it comes to the atrocities committed by the Russians.

The Second World War changed everything, it was something abnormal.
March 20th, 2015  
JOC
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by I3BrigPvSk
The bombing of German cities was a necessity to reduce the industrial capacity in Germany. What we need need to consider is the technology in the 1940s, they could not hit military targets without hitting something else. The British tried in the beginning of the war, but they failed. The Americans tried the same and failed. The failure caused a huge amount of casualties. The allied changed the approach and viewed the civilians as a legit target and much easier to hit.

In addition to this, there is a huge academic difference between when atrocities are a policy and when they occur in the heat of war. Hence, the Nazi KZ' can never be compared with the camps for the Americans with a Japanese ancestry, nor can the behavior of German forces and Japanese forces be compared with how the allied behaved. thus, the allied weren't angels and they reacted to what they experienced.

We also need to differentiate between the Soviets and the Western allied when it comes to the atrocities committed by the Russians.

The Second World War changed everything, it was something abnormal.
I couldn't have summed it up any better concerning the allies.

Stalin cleaned up his act during the war relaxing both religious and political persecutions to drum up popular support which he desperately needed for his great patriotic war. So for a few years he pretended to be the good guy. Not that all persecutions ended but he brushed aside most of his pet peeves to win the war. Most Soviets hoped that the reforms that took place during the war would continue into peace time period.

Unfortunately they had a rude awaking at wars end as Stalin started taking revenge against German sympathizers (most of who were imagined) and again purging the army's upper ranks due to his jealously of their popularity.

Several million died at wars end and in the aftermath due to Stalin's madness. The Crimean Tartars, the Kalmucks, 1/2 the Chechens, hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians, Balts, ex-Soviet POW's and ex-Soviet slave laborers ďwho had somehow managed to survive the Nazi'sĒ all were suspect just by proximity to the German enemy.

Whether Stalin or Hitler was a bigger murderer or caused more hardship and death may never be resolved. However what Iím saying is that during the context of WW2 Hitler defiantly wins the bad boy award.
March 20th, 2015  
tetvet
 
By 1944 the U.S. was out producing all the Allies and Axis combined in Planes , Ships , tanks , Bombs , guns and bread , Japan had shot her wad at Pearl Harbor down hill from there , Germany self destructed not at Stalingrad but when they declared war on the U.S. , Russia received Manna from heaven in the form of bennies from the U.S. and became our biggest enemy , we could have easily pinched Japan off from all her lifelines and avoided all those messy Island campaigns , we could have supplied the Empire and Russia with all they needed and more and could have stayed out of the European war altogether .
March 21st, 2015  
LeEnfield
 
 
Are civilians innocent during the war, well they make the weapons of war and their taxes go on to support the war. I think it was an American General during the American civil war who when asked about laying waste huge sections of the south as he marched across it stated that with out the money and food from these people the war would have ended earlier.

It is very easy for all the people who did not live through WW 2 and this period of history and especially in war zone to fully understand what it was like. It is very easy to read a few books written by some one who also was not there and disagrees about what should have happened. I have been in Arnhem a few times and speaking to the people there that treat the British Airborne like their own family, I have often asked them why they treat us that way seeing we killed so many of the population and ruined their town and the reply is always the same. which is "Unless you have been a conquered nation then you will never understand or appreciate freedom". Now I think this says it all about what happened when the fight to defeat Hitler took place.
March 21st, 2015  
I3BrigPvSk
 
 
Can we completely understand the Second World War without being a part of it? We can probably understand the strategical/political decisions during the war, but can we understand how it was in London during the Blitz or standing in a Higgins boat approaching Normandy?
 


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