The Dambusters - Page 5




 
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March 16th, 2015  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeEnfield
Monty........ Millions of Russians POWs were killed are allowed to die of starvation, can you tell me when the Allied Armies did this also. Okay before you get back on your soap box I will agree that the Russians managed to get rid of a lot of German POW, there again the German invasion of Russia killed some 20 million Russians.

If one follows your argument then if one Army has big gun that kills more people than the ones you have then it would be wrong for you to build a bigger gun that would counteract his big gun. I suppose you will argue that the V 1 and V 2 were okay as they did kill as many people as area bombing.


Any war is a criminal act of some one trying impose there ideals on to you and if you disagree then you will be wiped out, now if it is wrong then to fight against things then we are all guilty and having myself taken up arms for my country then I am also guilty. Now I can't help wondering if you have ever served in the military and have smelled gunpowder at close range.
Oh cut the sanctimony, I fully understand that wars kill people and some of those will be innocent parties, you do not see me waffling on about the bombing of Hamburg, Cologne or any other German cities because they were destroyed when the war was in its balance and the allies did what they needed to do to turn the tide but Dresden was a totally different scenario and it was destroyed for the sake of it which is where I draw the line.

The allied propaganda post WW2 emphasised that we were the "good guys" fighting an unprecedented evil and in part I can buy that as Hitlers Germany was the unprecedented evil portrayed but the facts that we refuse to face up to is that we really weren't the good guys we were just the more justified of two evils.

Incidentally the Russian casualty figures are somewhat debatable and I would suggest that your 20 million is total for the WW2 period of which approximately half that number were killed by Stalin's team (that was the lot we consider part of the "good guys") and not Hitlers lunatics.
March 16th, 2015  
tetvet
 
Going to War in this day and age is absurd , but if one must then pre-empt .
March 16th, 2015  
JOC
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
Oh cut the sanctimony, I fully understand that wars kill people and some of those will be innocent parties, you do not see me waffling on about the bombing of Hamburg, Cologne or any other German cities because they were destroyed when the war was in its balance and the allies did what they needed to do to turn the tide but Dresden was a totally different scenario and it was destroyed for the sake of it which is where I draw the line.

The allied propaganda post WW2 emphasised that we were the "good guys" fighting an unprecedented evil and in part I can buy that as Hitlers Germany was the unprecedented evil portrayed but the facts that we refuse to face up to is that we really weren't the good guys we were just the more justified of two evils.

Incidentally the Russian casualty figures are somewhat debatable and I would suggest that your 20 million is total for the WW2 period of which approximately half that number were killed by Stalin's team (that was the lot we consider part of the "good guys") and not Hitlers lunatics.


Vadim Erlikman has detailed Soviet losses totaling 26.5 million war related deaths. Military losses of 10.6 million include 6.0 million killed or missing in action and 3.6 million POW dead, plus 400,000 paramilitary and Soviet partisan losses. Civilian deaths totaled 15.9 million, which included 1.5 million from military actions; 7.1 million victims of Nazi genocide and reprisals; 1.8 million deported to Germany for forced labor; and 5.5 million famine and disease deaths. Additional famine deaths, which totaled 1 million during 1946–47, are not included here. Soviet repressions seems also to be not included. These losses are for the entire territory of the USSR including territories annexed in 1939–40.
Belarus lost a quarter of its pre-war population, including practically all its intellectual elite. Following bloody encirclement battles, all of the present-day Belarus territory was occupied by the Germans by the end of August 1941. The Nazis imposed a brutal regime, deporting some 380,000 young people for slave labor, and killing hundreds of thousands of civilians more.[citation needed] More than 600 villages like Khatyn were burned with their entire population.[71] More than 209 cities and towns (out of 270 total) and 9,000 villages were destroyed. Himmler pronounced a plan according to which 3/4 of Belarusian population was designated for "eradication" and 1/4 of racially cleaner population (blue eyes, light hair) would be allowed to serve Germans as slaves.
Some recent reports raise the number of Belarusians who perished in War to "3 million 650 thousand people, unlike the former 2.2 million. That is to say not every fourth inhabitant but almost 40% of the pre-war Belarusian population perished (considering the present-day borders of Belarus)." [72]
Just a few sources to back up my claim of the unparalleled catastrophe brought on by the Nazi’s in the USSR during WW2. These statics do not include the deaths resulting from forced relocation by Stalin and the NKVD of the Chechens, Tartar’s, Volga Germans, and others deemed enemies at of the USSR for collusion with the Germans (many “but not all” of which took place after the war). In total their deaths would amount to ~ (1.5 to 2) million. Also thousands (not millions) of members of the Red army were killed for failure to obey Stalin’s not one step back order. Often dying while participating in suicide attacks. A disciplinary measure also used by the Germans as well.
Note: As for the 20 million WW2 deaths attributed to the German invasion this figure is outdated as was pointed out in the above breakdown. See below for more references of Soviets deaths in WW2. I think that there is a place for numbers when the numbers are this high and occurred in less than 4 years. It's helps make one aware of the magnitude of the crime.
http://www.eisenhowerinstitute.org/about/living_history/wwii_soviet_experience.dot
http://www.nationalww2museum.org/learn/education/for-students/ww2-history/ww2-by-the-numbers/world-wide-deaths.html
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Eastern_Front_(World_War_II)
http://www.secondworldwarhistory.com/world-war-2-statistics.asp
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March 17th, 2015  
MontyB
 
 
All nifty but there are 10,000 historians out there analysing these numbers and coming up with different conclusions that vary from 20 million to 46 million.

The fact is we will never know the exact number and to a large degree it doesn't matter because we can say that the Soviet casualties of all types during WW2 exceeded 20 million and that a fair proportion of those we not killed by the Germans.
March 17th, 2015  
tetvet
 
Stalin is noted for killing off a number of his fellow Russians and anyone else he didn't want around .
March 17th, 2015  
JOC
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
All nifty but there are 10,000 historians out there analysing these numbers and coming up with different conclusions that vary from 20 million to 46 million.

The fact is we will never know the exact number and to a large degree it doesn't matter because we can say that the Soviet casualties of all types during WW2 exceeded 20 million and that a fair proportion of those we not killed by the Germans.


Take the example of the Ukraineís, the 2ndlargest Soviet republic. Before the war the Ukraine resisted Soviet rule. Large scale genocide occluded as a result of Stalinís forced collectivization policy and the starvation and murders of millions that went with it.These losses in human life were not in related to WW2 and ended by the mid 1930ís.
The 7+ million Ukrainians that died in WW2 died primarily at the hands of the Germans. With a few exceptions of suspected German sympathizers. It would be naÔve to think that Adolf Hitler and the Nazi German government was not bent on destroying as many Ukrainian subhumanís as possible. Approximately 5 million Ukrainians joined the Red army (and were glad to take part in the fight against the hated invader) upon liberation of the Ukraine from Germany. The point is that Stalin did murder millions in Soviet republics like the Ukraine. But during the war the vast majority of the killing were dished out by the Naziís in the anti Slavic ethnic cleansing polices. This is one of the main reasons that many of the Red army soldier fought so hard was for lost family and loved ones.
March 17th, 2015  
LeEnfield
 
 
The bombing that took place in Britain caused 2 million people to be made homeless, and V 2 were still wreaking havoc right up to 1945. There were small workshops all over German making items for the German war machine just like they did in Britain and Hamburg just like any other city was engaged in the war effort. Request for the bombing of Hamburg had been received from the Russians and it was considered a fair target by those in Britain. Due to fact the Bomber command had grown to a very large force and had the Lancaster which could carry a very pay load, just added to Hamburg's problem, yet if the Germans had such a bomber they would have have used it to destroy London and the German would have cheered them on. People that take the morale high ground that did not live through this period of history are disillusioned about just what a close run thing it was. There was also a great worry by the Allies that the Germans were working on the Atom bomb and would have put it on V 2 The intelligence services knew this and every effort was made to crush Germany before this would happen. As it was Germany was down as the first choice target for the Atom bomb to used on but Germany fell just before it was ready, so if you think Hamburg was bad then it could have been a dam sight worse.
March 17th, 2015  
BritinAfrica
 
 
My Grandmother with two aunts were in Enfield Town in North London, near the old Enfield Lock Small Arms Factory, when there was an air raid warning. For some reason she refused to go into the public air raid shelter. Minutes after passing the shelter it got a direct hit killing all inside. My Grandmother and my two aunts were blown off their feet, suffering only minor injuries.

My Grandfather a WW1 Vet joined the Home Guard, he finished his patrol and decided to go into the local pub for a pint. Three German bombers enroute to Enfield Lock were shot down, as one was coming down one of the German gunners opened fire on the pub. My Grandfather realised what was going on and threw himself on the floor. Covered in broken glass but thankfully unhurt, he was most annoyed that his pint was smashed. The bomber crashed into a row of houses then blew up. The bullet pock marks were in the pub walls when I was a boy.
March 19th, 2015  
JOC
 
 
One can argue all day about the allies being on the same moral low gnd because we shelled building that were enemy strongholds “even if they contained civilians” and we bombed cities in Japan and Germany as Germany did to the rest of Europe (however they never had the numbers or quality of long range bombers as the Allies had). The allies took all possible measure to win the war but never made it their policy to murder millions of POWs, prisoners and ethnic groups. Japan left a trail of blood, rape and destruction wherever the Japanese army went. Basically all occupied countries were squeezed for resources and their people used as slaves as needed by the Japanese. Germany was somewhat more lenient in the west (although plenty of French, Italians, Dutch and Belgium’s were used as slaves and were killed if any resistance was even suspected. However in the east Hitler went on an unparalleled killing spree. These are behaviors never condoned by any allied army and were in part why we were fighting the war. Yes the USSR was a brutal regime, but during the war, they toned down the brutality in order to get the popular support they needed. I’m not sticking up for Stalin, he went right back to his old ways after the war was over.
March 19th, 2015  
MontyB
 
 
Yet we hung Germans for doing exactly the same and pandered to Stalins wishes who was as bad as if not worse than Hitler. Once again you are adopting the philosophy that because we were the "good guys" whatever bad we did was justified and that seems to be the Wests modus-operandi for the last 100 years and the reason the world is still in a mess today.
 


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