Current Contenders being considered to replace the M9




 
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September 1st, 2011  
mmarsh
 
 

Topic: Current Contenders being considered to replace the M9


Interesting article at the contenders looking to replace the M9.

Article is here + Slideshow

http://www.armytimes.com/news/2011/0...ing-m9-82811w/

They are:

PX-4 Storm in .40 Cal
Beretta 92A1 in 9mm
Beretta 96A2 in .40 Cal
Glock 17 in 9mm
Glock 22 in .40 Cal
Glock 37 in .45
Sig Sauer P226 in 9mm
Smith and Wesson MP in 9mm
Smith and Wesson MP 40 in .40Cal
HK 2000

Other Guns under consideration but with little/no chance
P250 .40Cal

Now each gun has its supporters and detractors. I would be curious to hear what you all think

My only comment is I am surprised to see so many 9mm as I thought the complaints about lack of penetration against body armor would have eliminated it. By the same account I am surprised to see only a few in .45.

The other thing I noticed is that many of the models are not exactly new, but are well known. I would have thought they would have picked something a little more modern. I mean those Glocks and Sigs are proven but not exactly cutting edge technology. Knowing the military's love of new toys, I was surprised by this

The other interesting thing is that the Army said they will be only "picking off the shelf guns" only.

What do you'll think of the candidates???
September 1st, 2011  
A Can of Man
 
 
I'm very much a Glock person. Whether it be chambered for the 9mm or the .45, I don't think it'll matter much.
Personally, I'm relieved that a lot of familiar names are on that list. Why? Because a pistol is a pistol. Its role hasn't changed much over the last hundred years or so. Most of the pistols on that list do their job and do their job very well. We don't need a next generation gizmogun that has so many manufacturing or design defects it takes another 10 years and a few billion more dollars to fix.
Glocks are immensely reliable and very affordable. There is a reason why police departments around the world have favored the Glock as their sidearm of choice.
The Beretta M9 is such a crappy pistol that I wonder how on earth it actually won the competition to be the standard issue sidearm of the US military. For a 9mm pistol, it is HUGE and bulky. The pistol grip is uncomfortable. It's trigger is awful. It also jams fairly regularly. When someone says "steaming pile of crap" I think Beretta M9.
September 1st, 2011  
KJ
 
 
Think of it´s application.
IF you need to employ your sidearm I would want a piece that fires the first time, everytime.
The Glock does that.
It has been tried and proven.
Something new might not without extensive afterwork after the first model.

The first batch of Sigs the SEALs got rusted in saltwater.
That is not good for a force operating out of the sea...
They had to get the manufacturer to add a coat that didn´t rust.
Before that kink was sorted the guns were not only late but also more expensive than other models.

The Scar is the latest brand new special special development project that got the thumbs down from the end user.

We choose the Glock,s because they WILL fire the uploaded 9mm cartridge M39b (that WILL penetrate most armor) almost in defenite wich the Sig,s doesn´t.
I´m sure we can sell you guys some.
For training you can use whatever round you have on stock.
My guess is that there is a shitload already purchased 9mm ammo floating around the US Army.

Reinventing side arms are like throwing money at reinventing the wheel IMHO.

KJ sends..
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September 2nd, 2011  
5.56X45mm
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmarsh
Interesting article at the contenders looking to replace the M9.

Article is here + Slideshow

http://www.armytimes.com/news/2011/0...ing-m9-82811w/

They are:

PX-4 Storm in .40 Cal Complicated design
Beretta 92A1 in 9mm Nothing but an updated M9
Beretta 96A2 in .40 Cal Nothing but an updated M9 in .40 S&W
Glock 17 in 9mm Great Choice
Glock 22 in .40 Cal Best Choice in my opinion
Glock 37 in .45 Okay design but a bit on the large size in grip. Not small people friendly
Sig Sauer P226 in 9mm Garbage and Crap... Sig had issues then and quality had taken a dump recently.
Smith and Wesson MP in 9mm A good choice and making inroads into the police market
Smith and Wesson MP 40 in .40Cal Another good choice and making inroads into the police market
HK 2000 Another overly engineered pistol. If something doesn't have 342 extraneous parts the Germans have a hard time putting it together. As someone who has worked on german vehicles before, I have to laugh at this. German cars are the worst to work on. The last time I helped someone change a battery in a Jetta, I believe it had no less than 8 bolts holding the battery down, and the owner's manual prescribed taking it in to a VW dealer to have it done. I think I only fastened two bolts back down when I was done. There is a reason why the Germans lost WWII... their designs were overly complicated for mass production and required a million and one parts.

Other Guns under consideration but with little/no chance
P250 .40Cal Complete piece of crap.... makes H&K look good. This pistol has failed so many trails for adoption in the US that Sig has pretty much stopped trying to push it here. It failed BATFE's pistol trail against GLOCK and S&W. Sig failed and tried to sue BATFE for the reason of failure.

Now each gun has its supporters and detractors. I would be curious to hear what you all think

My only comment is I am surprised to see so many 9mm as I thought the complaints about lack of penetration against body armor would have eliminated it. By the same account I am surprised to see only a few in .45.

The other thing I noticed is that many of the models are not exactly new, but are well known. I would have thought they would have picked something a little more modern. I mean those Glocks and Sigs are proven but not exactly cutting edge technology. Knowing the military's love of new toys, I was surprised by this

The other interesting thing is that the Army said they will be only "picking off the shelf guns" only.

What do you'll think of the candidates???

The Beretta 92FS (M9) was born in the age of the wonder nines. When 15rd in a magazine was unheard of and it was and still is a reliable pistol. I own one and have carried on occasion. I carried a beat up M9 in the service and she worked.

In the armed forces; a handgun is a secondary tool. The rifle is number one... As for retiring the M9; the US Military was doing the Joint Combat Pistol Trails back in 2005-2006 and ended the program not because of money or the pistols couldn't do the job. But because they remembered two things.

1. When the H&K Mark 23 was adopted it was adopted under the premise of an "Offensive Pistol". Well, guess what? Pistols aren't offensive weapons for the military. Long guns are the tools for that role. Also the damn thing was so big and cumbersome that the folks issued it hated the damn thing.
2. Pistols are used as backup secondary weapons. The only guy that will carry a pistol as a primary is usually the company clerk stuck in the rear that the closest form of combat he'll get is a paper jam with the printer. Everyone else that carries one in the field does so as a backup to their primary weapon. Rifle, MG, Tank, Plane, etc.... if you're using your pistol something bad has happened.

The main issues with the M9 are the following.... It's a little on the large size but it's not huge. The grip size issue is blown way out of proportion. I have small hands and I can shoot it fine. The magazines suck for it.... not the factory Beretta made magazine or the Mec-Gar made aftermarket mags. But the Checkmate made mags. Checkmate makes awesome M14 mags at a cheap price. Uncle Sam gave Checkmate a contract to make M9 mags. They SUCKED and FAILED. They parkerized the inside of the mag body and the followers were crap. Consent problems with failure to feed with those mags.

The Open Design of the Beretta is actually not a bad thing. It's father in design; the Beretta M1951 has been used by the following countires. Israel, Iraq, Egypt, Libya, Yemen, and Tunisia. All of them are arid desert nations with a lot of dust and sand storms. The M1951 served fine in all of them. The open design and large gaps between parts gives it a looser tolerance then the 1911 that it replaced.

The issue of wound profiles is an issue not of the caliber but of the cartridge itself. If the Military ditched the whole FMJ non expanding round bullcrap they'd realize that all modern day JHP ammo pretty much does the same work.



12 inches is the minimum amount of penetration through ballistic gel for the FBI. That translates into a good hit on a normal clothed subject. If you look most of the modern loads all have about the same amount of penetration.

The military right now is simply looking at off the shelf pistols that could possibly replace the M9. It's not going to happen anytime soon. Beretta has just received some very large contracts by the US DoD for more pistols. The study is a brainstorm just as what happened with the possible replacement of the AR-15 series of rifles. The H&K XM8, HK416, SCAR, etc... were all looked at and in the end the US Army and US Airforce are sticking with the M4 Carbine. The US Army has a modernization program for the M4 which is simply a heavier barrel and some different stock options, etc....

If the military was to change I think they should follow FBI (GLOCK), DEA (GLOCK), BATFE (GLOCK or S&W M&P), ICE (Sig or H&K), US Border Patrol (Sig or H&K), US Customs(Sig or H&K), Department of Homeland Security (Sig or H&K), US Coast Guard (Sig), and the thousands of PD nation wide (60% issue GLOCK in .40 S&W) and go with the GLOCK 22 in .40 S&W. The majority of the Federal Government is already issuing the .40 S&W in either a GLOCK, Sig, or H&K, and would make it even easier on logistics. I think the idea of NATO standardization should come to an end because I see NATO as a bloated and useless organization. But if we're to continue then just go with the GLOCK 17 in 9x19mm.

The GLOCK is a NATO issued pistol. It's idiot proof, safe to carry loaded, dead nuts reliable, light in weight, high in capacity, easy to take apart (only tool needed is one 3/32 punch pin for complete stripping down to pins and springs), the current 4th generation version of the pistol has different size back straps for different grip sizes, light rail, ambi mag release (reversible), and a very aggressive grip texture.
October 8th, 2011  
BritinAfrica
 
 
The good old 1911 Colt 45 would be my first choice every time, next would be the CZ75 along with the Browning Hi-Power.
October 9th, 2011  
George
 
Where it's legal to use hollow points only on illegal combatants, (Pirates & Al Quida), we still have Ball ammo for shooting @ other Nations Armed Forces, so I'd say something in 40 S&W or 45 ACP. 357 SIG would seem to be a good choice if the possibility of body armor exists.
October 12th, 2011  
03USMC
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BritinAfrica
The good old 1911 Colt 45 would be my first choice every time, next would be the CZ75 along with the Browning Hi-Power.
The US doesn't like Pvt Snuffy or Lt Harvard playing with the single action so you end up carrying a unloaded piece.


Of the list I'd go with the Glock 17 or the M&P9.
October 14th, 2011  
BritinAfrica
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 03USMC
The US doesn't like Pvt Snuffy or Lt Harvard playing with the single action so you end up carrying a unloaded piece.


Of the list I'd go with the Glock 17 or the M&P9.
Put that way, I'd agree. I suppose that's why revolvers were issued in the British Army well after WW2

Although for someone who's prepared to train and train properly, I'd still take the 1911 every time.

I did encounter a problem with a Glock 19 I sold to a customer or I should say a problem with the customer. He brought it back first thing on Monday morning telling me it kept stove piping. That day I took it to the range and ran through around 50 rounds with no hiccups, it fed and fired no problem. I phoned the owner and told him I couldn't find anything wrong with it, he collected the pistol and was back the next day complaining of the same fault.

To cut a long story short a buddy and I had a chat who suggested I ask him to see how he holds the gun, which I did, right away there was his problem, he was firing it limp wristed and unlocked elbow. The recoil energy was being wasted moving his right arm backwards, instead of the slide. Since that day I have seen a few new Glock owners with a similar problem.

My son's CZ75 (1994 build) has literally fired thousands of factory, reloaded, hollow points, semi jacket without a single stove pipe or jam. Its an amazing firearm.
October 14th, 2011  
03USMC
 
 
Oh yeah. You can't limp wrist the Glock or what you described will happen, but as far ease of care and ease of training it's near the top. The problem would be that the US would want a manual safety, Glock has made a few G17's with them but S&W currently has production runs of M&P's with and without the safety.
October 15th, 2011  
BritinAfrica
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 03USMC
Oh yeah. You can't limp wrist the Glock or what you described will happen, but as far ease of care and ease of training it's near the top. The problem would be that the US would want a manual safety, Glock has made a few G17's with them but S&W currently has production runs of M&P's with and without the safety.
We had team a from the Glock factory here in SA quite a few years ago who via the importer, invited dealers to attend a seminar. One dealer asked the question regarding manual safety catches. The team replied that that had built a number of 17's as you mentioned for a European military (I can't remember which) who after testing found that the safety wasn't required.

I will admit I don't like the idea of automatic safeties, then again I've been called a dinosaur by my son more then once.
 


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