The controversial creation of israel - Page 7




 
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February 23rd, 2010  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
Clearly he is anti-semitic or perhaps he understand history better than others.
But of course!
February 23rd, 2010  
MontyB
 
 
I have a question about this guy though, he claims to be an atheist so how can he be Jewish which is a religion not a race/nationality.
February 23rd, 2010  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
I have a question about this guy though, he claims to be an atheist so how can he be Jewish which is a religion not a race/nationality.
I think some persons don't really know the difference between being "Jewish" and just having Jewish parentage. My parents were Methodists (I think)*, but that does not make me a Methodist.

*Neither attended any church for the purpose of worship.

I also have great difficulty in understanding persons proclaiming to follow some "god", and in the same sentence they preach murder and intolerance of their fellow man. I know of no recognised religion that supports this view.

No,... not even the much maligned Islam.

Such is the case with Israel, and hence my views in this thread.
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February 23rd, 2010  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
I think some persons don't really know the difference between being "Jewish" and just having Jewish parentage. My parents were Methodists (I think)*, but that does not make me a Methodist.

*Neither attended any church for the purpose of worship.

I also have great difficulty in understanding persons proclaiming to follow some "god", and in the same sentence they preach murder and intolerance of their fellow man. I know of no recognised religion that supports this view.

No,... not even the much maligned Islam.

Such is the case with Israel, and hence my views in this thread.
Well you know what they say, if heaven is full of the people that have claimed to be righteous throughout history then hell may not be such a bad option, not to mention the jokes saying "if we are all gods children what is so special about Jesus" and "if gods love is unconditional hell has to be empty".

One of the big problems all religion faces is not the intent of the message but it's interpretation, I still believe that religion as a whole is like all the fairy tales that parents tell their children it is designed to pass a message by encouraging good actions and punishing bad actions through fear and as much as there is no Easter bunny, Santa Claus or Bogyman there is no god or devil they are just characters in a story.
February 24th, 2010  
Panzercracker
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
I have a question about this guy though, he claims to be an atheist so how can he be Jewish which is a religion not a race/nationality.
He's got Jewish roots, even if he renounces them he has a right to claim being Jewish, i'm aware of religion issues but we need to drop them, i made a few Jewish friends in London and they didnt give a broken penny about their own faith but they'd be pretty offended if i ever suggested they were not Jewish.
February 24th, 2010  
MontyB
 
 
Actually I don't think it can be dropped because the distinction between a race and a religion is the root of the regional problem, basically if "Jewish" is a race then it gives the creation of Israel a level of legitimacy under a historical sense if it is a religion it removes that legitimacy.

Determining the answer to that question is pretty much the key to solving the regional problem in my opinion.

Now as I understand it many governments have determined "Jewish" is a race for the purposes of anti-discrimination laws but this is not entirely shared by the people themselves who believe that it can lead to a repeat holocaust by creating a segregation excuse.

But setting aside the emotional issues, Jews are clearly not a race.

Race is a genetic distinction, and refers to people with shared ancestry and shared genetic traits. You can't change your race; it's in your DNA. you could never become black or Asian no matter how much you might want to.

Common ancestry is not required to be a Jew. Many Jews worldwide share common ancestry, as shown by genetic research; however, you can be a Jew without sharing this common ancestry, for example, by converting. Thus, although I could never become black or Asian, blacks and Asians have become Jews.

So on the whole I think the big problem that is faced here is the persistent desire not to offend one particular group and as such we avoid answering the questions that will eventually lead to an equatable solution.

I also have to agree about your observations as mine have been exactly the same.
February 24th, 2010  
Panzercracker
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
Actually I don't think it can be dropped because the distinction between a race and a religion is the root of the regional problem, basically if "Jewish" is a race then it gives the creation of Israel a level of legitimacy under a historical sense if it is a religion it removes that legitimacy.
How is raciality of Jews legitimazing Israel, as long as the bottom line is "Arabs lived there for a 1000 years and Jews stole their homes" its still illegitimate as hell.

Of course its a bit more complicated since modern Jews are both ethnicaly and culturally only very loosely tied to original Jews, even their religion is a watered down version of original Judaism with only loose connections to the real thing.

Also Monty Jews are a "race" in that they're ethnically diverse people bound together by cultural heritage, if you have been born and raised as a Jew you're one, its a question of cultural mentality more then religion, same for all of us really, if you've been born and raised in New Zealand you're a New Zealander and you will always be one.
February 24th, 2010  
MontyB
 
 
I would argue that being a New Zealander is a nationality not a race (there is no New Zealand race) and a nationality is closer to a religion than a race (anyone can become a New Zealander much as anyone can become Catholic, Muslim or Jewish).

I will give you this as a source (although almost all say the same thing)

http://judaism.about.com/od/abcsofju...eingjewish.htm
February 24th, 2010  
Panzercracker
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
I would argue that being a New Zealander is a nationality not a race (there is no New Zealand race) and a nationality is closer to a religion than a race (anyone can become a New Zealander much as anyone can become Catholic, Muslim or Jewish).

I will give you this as a source (although almost all say the same thing)

http://judaism.about.com/od/abcsofju...eingjewish.htm
I'm not arguing the common perception, i'm simply proposng that being a Jew is different then being a Catholic, Jews for a very long time simply did not have secular culture, Judaism was IT, so if you were raised as a Jew and went secular you're still soaked in religious tradition you're just not assigning importance to the sacral element.
February 24th, 2010  
senojekips
 
 
This now starts to tie in with the thread that I started regarding the usage of the term "Anti Semitic" which would tend to indicate that the Jews see themselves or their origins as Semitic, or basically,... they are Arabs.

But for them this has bad conotations so they prefer the description,... Semites. This then puts the cat well among the pigeons, as we know that not all Jews are Semites.

It seems to me that for reasons of political and moral convenience they want to merely create a "race" for themselves, so as to be seen as "different" and give themselves some legitimacy as a defined race,... which we can clearly see from sources previously posted, they are not.

The only common thing that all Jews share is a religion............
 


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