Chechen war

[Shmack]

Today is somewhat unofficial anniversary of the Second Chechen war. On August, 16, 1999 leader of the separatists Aslan Maskhadov declared martial law 9 days after the Chechens invaded another Russian republic - Daghestan and were squeezed out back to Chechnya. First big Russian units entered Chechnya this day, then go 9 months of active fightings and thousands of dead before Russian troops take control over all populated areas of the breakaway republic.

This war wasn't that easy and beautiful as Georgian campaign 10 years later. These are pics made by some European journalist in Autumn 1999.

A typical Chechen city.

Capital of Chechnya. Before dissolution of the Soviet Union its population was 400 thousand people, it was a popular resort.

Separatists' 'militants'.

Caption reads 'We came back to f**k you'.

Howitzer, tank and baby buggy.

Notorious Minutka ('just a minute' in Russian) square, the very downtown of Grozny.

Everybody is wearing whatever he wants and protects himself with whatever he has. Ragamuffin army. For some reason this aspect always impressed me most of all.

Chechen mass grave.

'Restaurant' in Gudermes town. Apparently they were waiting for some English-speaking tourists, perhaps from Australia or Canada to drop in.

You know, Chechen conflict was the very thing which made me to finally reconsider my plans for future, leave linguistic university and enter military academy. By the time I recieved leutenant rank the war was already over. I never took part in any battles, but i felt very strong immersiveness. Back then it seemed to me that i've joined another army, not the one which engaged in that war 2 years before, but triumphant and committed. It took me several years to realize how wrong i was.

 

[A Can of Man]

Thanks for the photos and the great descriptions.

 

[Prapor]

"A typical Chechen city."

Hey, don't blow things out of proportion, it's not so bad anymore. There is a bit of reconstruction going on...

But, yeah... A dirty war, in full meaning of that word. My older brother was there, my father and uncle too, they first fought as volunteers, defended Dagestan, back in '99.

I tell you: here is the mistake that was made, made by Yeltsin. All he had to do was talk to Dudaev. Jokhar, he did not want to secede, he did not want to leave. What he wanted: a little more autonomy, more control over oil money, he wanted less than what, say, Minikhanov has today in Tatarstan. But, Moscow said, 'NO NEGOTIATION WITH BANDITS!' But Dudaev was no bandit, he was an officer, a loyal one, he fought for our country in Abkhazia, and before that, in Afghan. He was no Islamist either. After he was killed, those who came after him, Basaev and Co. that is the nightmare that plagues all of North Caucasus to this day. Putin, I do not blame, he had no choice but to resume the war, as I said, they invaded Dagestan.

Yeltsin... As someone from North Caucasus, I would like to go to his grave, so I can spit on it. Unfortunately, it is covered by that monument, in the shape of the flag. I'd be spitting right on the tricolor, that wouldn't look very nice lol

 

[Shmack]

Prapor (by the way, what's your name?), i was trying to be sarcastic with a typical city, ok?

I have a littile diffirent opinion on the issue. The way i see it, the problem was not Dudaev himself. The problem was a trend which endangered territorial integrity of Russia. You know that Chechnya was not the only republic wich tended to break off from Russia. Negotiations with separatist force (whether it is a terrorist, or an air force general) would provoke chain reaction all over North Caucasus and not only there. Of course, Dudaev was very far from being a terrorist, but anyway he personalized the force that could become a serious danger if not neutralized on time. In this sense i don't think i could have come up with any other way except war either in 1994 or of course in 1999.

The other question is how these wars were fought. Yeltsin's mistake was not launching the first war, his mistake was loosing it. With all that causalities and war crimes his incompetent and corrupt generals managed to loose it. Now it sounds improbable, but that was something Russia could have not survived.

 

[Shmack]

Thanks for the photos and the great descriptions.

I was also trying to find some videos like US marines blowing up washing machines in Iraq or throwing fake little puppies in a canyon just for the hell of it, but i didn't manage to.

 

[A Can of Man]

Well those are everywhere.
As for the puppy thing... let's not go there.

 

[Shmack]

Well those are everywhere.
As for the puppy thing... let's not go there.

Come on, i love military so-called humour, i hope you don't misunderstand me.

 

[A Can of Man]

I understand, the civilians don't.

 

[Yossarian]

I don't see how you could humor such a thing as the conflict depicted above :/

I am not trying to be a jerk wad, but every time I hear the name Chechnya, bad images come to mind. I don't condemn or condone with my opinions of both wars or tangle in conversation with the political aspects, both sides are the victims and also the aggressors.

For all the young fighters who were sent in, and people who just lived there and did not participate in the conflict, and were caught in the crossfire, my condolences.

 

[Partisan]

I don't see how you could humor such a thing as the conflict depicted above :/

I am not trying to be a jerk wad, but every time I hear the name Chechnya, bad images come to mind. I don't condemn or condone with my opinions of both wars or tangle in conversation with the political aspects, both sides are the victims and also the aggressors.

For all the young fighters who were sent in, and people who just lived there and did not participate in the conflict, and were caught in the crossfire, my condolences.

Sukio, sometimes it is better to laugh than cry.

We get pulled into these situations through many factors, not least of which is political Imperialiasm - virtually every country is guilty of it. In order to achieve he short term objectives the politicians are willing to sacrifice the youth of their country, sometimes history judges that the cuse is noble, sometimes not so, but for those stuck in the crosshairs, living the result of political decisions - humour is the best form of defence and your greatest attack.

On the flip side I would also like to say that nothing positive was projected from Chechnya, because the media didn't report anything positive - not to say that there was but where have all our impartial reporters gone?

 

[Prapor]

Prapor (by the way, what's your name?), i was trying to be sarcastic with a typical city, ok?

Ruslan Khorebov is my name. As for sarcasm, that's fine. But, I am just saying that things have been done. Look at Grozny, same street during the war and now:

And the giant new Akhmad Kadyrov mosque:

Seats 10,000 comfortably, and its minarets are 60 meters high!

I have a littile diffirent opinion on the issue. The way i see it, the problem was not Dudaev himself. The problem was a trend which endangered territorial integrity of Russia. You know that Chechnya was not the only republic wich tended to break off from Russia. Negotiations with separatist force (whether it is a terrorist, or an air force general) would provoke chain reaction all over North Caucasus and not only there. Of course, Dudaev was very far from being a terrorist, but anyway he personalized the force that could become a serious danger if not neutralized on time. In this sense i don't think i could have come up with any other way except war either in 1994 or of course in 1999.

My friend, I repeat, Dudaev did not want to break away. He was not a separatist. He wanted more money from Chechen oil to stay in Chechnya, and maybe a little more autonomy, that's it.

The other question is how these wars were fought. Yeltsin's mistake was not launching the first war, his mistake was loosing it. With all that causalities and war crimes his incompetent and corrupt generals managed to loose it. Now it sounds improbable, but that was something Russia could have not survived.

Yeltsin was a screw up, period. An alcoholic trying to lead a country, a nuclear power at that... Recipe for disaster.

 

[Shmack]

Nice to meet you.

Ruslan, what do you mean Dudaev didn't want to break away? He was the one who had busted legal Chechen Supreme council in 1991, his first decree as president was declaration of independence. It was october, 1991. 3 years prior to war. His exact words in march 1992 were "Chechnya will negotiate with Russia only in case if Russia recognizes its independence", 2 years prior to war. He captured weapons and armor which Russian army kept on Chechen territory. That's called a little more autonomy?

 

[Prapor]

Read this: http://www.apn-nn.ru/diskurs_s/103.html

It is very interesting. If you can, please translate the most important parts for our English-speaking friends here. I don't have time right now to work on it, but I will tomorrow.

 

[Yossarian]

Sukio, sometimes it is better to laugh than cry.

We get pulled into these situations through many factors, not least of which is political Imperialism - virtually every country is guilty of it. In order to achieve he short term objectives the politicians are willing to sacrifice the youth of their country, sometimes history judges that the cuse is noble, sometimes not so, but for those stuck in the crosshairs, living the result of political decisions - humour is the best form of defence and your greatest attack.

On the flip side I would also like to say that nothing positive was projected from Chechnya, because the media didn't report anything positive - not to say that there was but where have all our impartial reporters gone?

Humoring the fact that you are there, if you are one of the ones in the midst of the consequences of the political decisions can I suppose ease the sting of it, but I am not sure with I agree with you on the fact that different media coverage would have swayed the true image of both engagements that much.

The most positive news withstanding,as far as I can conj our up, that thankfully fighting in the area has almost completely ceased, and has been that way for a few years now.

 

[adam7]

Protecting Russian integrity is more important than human rights?

Russia turned over the "republic" to a clique, which installed an autocratic Islamic area within the Russian federation. "If you can't beat them, join them".

Women are forced to wear headscarfs and the area is run by a mafialike gang. Local government....

By letting the chechens go, a lot of lives would have been saved. Dudayev was not an islamist, but an nationalist. after the wars, a part of the population is radicalised and turned islamists.

By letting them go, Russia also would have kept part of the islamist out of Russia. Now they are in. But perhaps the empire is more important.

The military performance of the Russian troops in the two wars is "interesting". Read Arkady Babchenko in many languages "The Colors of War", but in English it seems to be "One Soldier's War in Chechnya"

 

[Shmack]

Protecting Russian integrity is more important than human rights?

I'm afraid it is, it was at least.

Russia turned over the "republic" to a clique, which installed an autocratic Islamic area within the Russian federation. "If you can't beat them, join them".

Russia turned over poor uncontrolled clique to a rich loyal clique. Provoking collaborationism was the fastest and the most safe way to 'restore constitutional order'.

Women are forced to wear headscarfs and the area is run by a mafialike gang. Local government....

Some of the ladies are really forced to wear them, but i can assure you most of them are wearing the scarves because they wish to do that. Most often just to show how Chechen they are, how they love God and hate the Russians. That is how these wars affected youngsters.

By letting the chechens go, a lot of lives would have been saved. Dudayev was not an islamist, but an nationalist. after the wars, a part of the population is radicalised and turned islamists.

As i've mentioned above by letting the Chechens go, Russia would let the whole North Caucasus go. No matter who was in lead of separatists.

By letting them go, Russia also would have kept part of the islamist out of Russia. Now they are in. But perhaps the empire is more important.

This is a common misbelief. You know, between 1995 and 1999 Chechnya was de-facto an independent state. Did Russia keep islamists out of Russia? No. Because kidnapping Russian citizens was the best way to earn money in Chechnya. Is that whay you're calling 'to keep out'? Russia as well as the whole world could have recognized Chechnya as a sovereign state, but it would never become really sovereign. It would stay as a thorn in Russia's flesh.

 

[A Can of Man]

Russia needed to keep itself together to have any chance of retaining national power. Otherwise it would have been a large country with few people and lots and lots of ice.
I think I do understand Shmack's position. Russia had no choice.

 

[Shmack]

Russia needed to keep itself together to have any chance of retaining national power. Otherwise it would have been a large country with few people and lots and lots of ice.
I think I do understand Shmack's position. Russia had no choice.

Thank you, sir.

That's the exact point - retaining. Those are not imperial ambitions or playing superpower. That was almost a desperate move to save nascent state borders which appeared in 1991. Yes, it costed thousands of lives of both Russians and Chechens, and many other peoples. But Chechnya was not a sacrificial lamb, they were conscious of what they were doing and what Yeltsin's reaction would be (not to mention Putin).

Also i'd like to add that with all my respect to advocates of human rights, it seems to me that they tend to think that everybody in Russia is happy about what has happened and dancing on Chechens' bones. As i've already said Russia paid an immense price for its right to be a single nation and Moscow is still paying (literally, by spending incalculable billions on reconstruction of Chechnya) for its slackitude in late 80's which lead to chaos in Caucasus and thousands of dead. So, this has nothing to do with triumph, this is a tragedy and a bitter lesson.

 

[Prapor]

Thank you, sir.

That's the exact point - retaining. Those are not imperial ambitions or playing superpower. That was almost a desperate move to save nascent state borders which appeared in 1991. Yes, it costed thousands of lives of both Russians and Chechens, and many other peoples. But Chechnya was not a sacrificial lamb, they were conscious of what they were doing and what Yeltsin's reaction would be (not to mention Putin).

Also i'd like to add that with all my respect to advocates of human rights, it seems to me that they tend to think that everybody in Russia is happy about what has happened and dancing on Chechens' bones. As i've already said Russia paid an immense price for its right to be a single nation and Moscow is still paying (literally, by spending incalculable billions on reconstruction of Chechnya) for its slackitude in late 80's which lead to chaos in Caucasus and thousands of dead. So, this has nothing to do with triumph, this is a tragedy and a bitter lesson.

Know what I think? All these problems Russia has with minorities stem from one big issue: the complete and total lack of respect by the Slavic, Christian majority for the ethnic and religious minorities. Referring to people from Central Asia and the Caucasus as 'churki' ('dark') or 'zverki' ('beasts'); to Asian/Mongoloid people (Tyvans, Buryats, Kalmyks, others from Siberia, Kyrgyzs, Kazakhs, Russian Koreans) as 'uzkoglazye' ('narrow eyes'); all those jokes and anecdotes about Northern people, like Chukchi, how they are dumb, uneducated, primitive, alcoholics. You think people will love you for that? And the media plays a big part in that too: every time there is a fight between Slavs and Caucasians, the Caucasians are made out as the bad guys. And those 'Russian Marches' every year in every city that has a Russian-majority population? Maybe Kazan should have a 'Tatar March'? Or Ufa - a 'Bashkir March'? Or Ulan-Ude - 'Buryat March'? How would that feel? I myself had lived in Moscow, and I am half-Ossetian, I have a darker complexion then most Slavs, I've been singled out for it, and picked on. Those who shout 'Rossya dlia Russkix' ('Russia for ethnic Russians') should know that more than 1/5th of our country is non Slav and non Christian. Yet how many non-Slav deputats are in the Duma? Has there and will there ever be a Tatar or Kalmyk President of the Russian Federation?

You want to 'retain', then you have to reach out to people, show them that they are a part of this country, equal citizens, with same rights, same opportunities. Because millions of us are tired of being treated like crap, in the press, on TV, and on the street, becuase of what God we worship, what we look like, or what region we are from.

Because this

is not the country we want to live in, not our country. This is more and more like Nazi Germany. Look at those raised right arms. This is what their and your and my grandfathers and grandmothers fought and many died fighting against. But they are proud of it. As long as this continues, as long as Russkis keep acting this way, like they are Aryans and we are untermensch, there will be problems, Shmack, because, particularly us North Caucasians, we are proud people, we are warriors, we will not be treated this way, we will fight back. Those who try to kill us in the street because of our religion or nationality, the skinheads, we will fight them and kill them back. That is the only way for us, man. To defend our lives, our children, and our self-respect.

Remember Khursheda Sultonova, 9 years old

Russian neo nazi scum in Saint Petersburg murdered her in front of her father, stabbed her to death, 10 of them, because the family are Tajik and Muslim. How many people in Russia condemned this? I don't mean the government, they had to say something to save face. But among general population, among the Orthodox Church, among youth groups, how many? Instead we heard that the dad was probably a drug dealer and thus somehow deserved it. And how many others, Central Asian gastarbaiters, African and Asian exchange students were attacked becuase of the color of their skin or their religion or both? How many were murdered? In 2009, I believe something like 150 people were killed in Moscow alone in race-based 'incidents'. As long as this continues, so will not only the wars in North Caucasus, but the wars in the streets of Russian cities. Sorry, but new Russian fascism will not pass. No pasaran. Whose side are you on, Shmack? You decide.

 

[Partisan]

Know what I think? All these problems Russia has with minorities stem from one big issue: the complete and total lack of respect by the Slavic, Christian majority for the ethnic and religious minorities. Referring to people from Central Asia and the Caucasus as 'churki' ('dark') or 'zverki' ('beasts'); to Asian/Mongoloid people (Tyvans, Buryats, Kalmyks, others from Siberia, Kyrgyzs, Kazakhs, Russian Koreans) as 'uzkoglazye' ('narrow eyes'); all those jokes and anecdotes about Northern people, like Chukchi, how they are dumb, uneducated, primitive, alcoholics. You think people will love you for that? And the media plays a big part in that too: every time there is a fight between Slavs and Caucasians, the Caucasians are made out as the bad guys. And those 'Russian Marches' every year in every city that has a Russian-majority population? Maybe Kazan should have a 'Tatar March'? Or Ufa - a 'Bashkir March'? Or Ulan-Ude - 'Buryat March'? How would that feel? I myself had lived in Moscow, and I am half-Ossetian, I have a darker complexion then most Slavs, I've been singled out for it, and picked on. Those who shout 'Rossya dlia Russkix' ('Russia for ethnic Russians') should know that more than 1/5th of our country is non Slav and non Christian. Yet how many non-Slav deputats are in the Duma? Has there and will there ever be a Tatar or Kalmyk President of the Russian Federation?

You want to 'retain', then you have to reach out to people, show them that they are a part of this country, equal citizens, with same rights, same opportunities. Because millions of us are tired of being treated like crap, in the press, on TV, and on the street, becuase of what God we worship, what we look like, or what region we are from.
.

This proble is not unique to Russia, in fact it is endemic throughout the world. I have no solution for it, as it is a mistrust based on historic and current perceptions and biases, stemming from fear.

You can't overcome fear with a massive programme or propaganda rally, it needs to be tackled and confronted one on one and then only if the individual really wants to conquer that fear. Sad to say - but true - humnaity is a confrontational animal, it reacts with its fight or flightmentality the same as a rabbit or a wolf.