Chechen war

[LeMask]

Well, to explain the attacks on soft targets, it's pretty obvious.

They explained these attacks a long time ago. Let's take Al-Quaeda founders as an example. It started in Egypt when they attacked the president. They did this suicidal move thinking that the people of Egypt would rise once the snake is decapitated.

But they didnt, they left the military take on the extremists who were pretty much alone. They jailed them, tortured them, executed them etc...

So they think that the Muslims are corrupted by the western media/life style/culture etc... That they grew soft and that they are afraid to do their duty toward god... To take weapons to tackle the corrupt regimes ruling their countries...

So, once you think like that, you can target the civilians like you would target military targets...

And if you look carefully, they dont target any civilians... They dont bomb a shantytown or a mosque (from their own religious school). they bomb nightclubs, hotels, touristic areas etc...

In Morroco, the 16 May they bombed Casablanca. And guess where they bombed? they bombed a rich neighborhood, they bombed Villa Espagnole, some sort of expensive restaurant etc... And I've seen these kinds of places, the common people cant afford a meal there... Way too expensive.

And if you went to a nightclub in these countries, you would see a crowd of young people in front of the entrance, and you know that the will never get in unless they start dealing drugs and making tons of money... And it's these guys who cant enjoy life, who have an artificial and unreachable paradise in front of them who develop a hatred for the whole society... These are the young men who blow themselves up...

 

[Yossarian]

Well, to explain the attacks on soft targets, it's pretty obvious.

They explained these attacks a long time ago. Let's take Al-Quaeda founders as an example. It started in Egypt when they attacked the president. They did this suicidal move thinking that the people of Egypt would rise once the snake is decapitated.

But they didnt, they left the military take on the extremists who were pretty much alone. They jailed them, tortured them, executed them etc...

So they think that the Muslims are corrupted by the western media/life style/culture etc... That they grew soft and that they are afraid to do their duty toward god... To take weapons to tackle the corrupt regimes ruling their countries...

So, once you think like that, you can target the civilians like you would target military targets...

And if you look carefully, they dont target any civilians... They dont bomb a shantytown or a mosque (from their own religious school). they bomb nightclubs, hotels, touristic areas etc...

In Morroco, the 16 May they bombed Casablanca. And guess where they bombed? they bombed a rich neighborhood, they bombed Villa Espagnole, some sort of expensive restaurant etc... And I've seen these kinds of places, the common people cant afford a meal there... Way too expensive.

And if you went to a nightclub in these countries, you would see a crowd of young people in front of the entrance, and you know that the will never get in unless they start dealing drugs and making tons of money... And it's these guys who cant enjoy life, who have an artificial and unreachable paradise in front of them who develop a hatred for the whole society... These are the young men who blow themselves up...

Any Ideas how to provide security for those victims? Whether they say it's just or not, they are still gone. Facing the reality of the situation, any ideas to remedy the tension?

 

[LeMask]

Hmmm I would say social justice...

And social solidarity. We often forget that a kamikaze bomber commits suicide. We focus on the destruction they cause, and we forget that they killed themselves...

We say that the Jewish communties are the ones who suffer the least from suicides. Because their traditions push them to help each others.

If we started to care for our fellow citizens, we will have less problems...

We can exterminate these people with nothing to lose by giving them something to lose...

 

[Yossarian]

Last time most of us might have checked, if you give somebody something they generelly do not apreciate it, depends on what you are proposing you give someone, you can not give some one somthing intangible if they could care less, and giving something tangible can lead to obvious problems.

Also yes, Kamikazees did kill themselves, it was sucide, and descriped to them as a sucide misssion, but in that sceneario there was nothing the allies could do to "comfort"? Or undo the reasoning they felt behind that.

Only drill the crews on AA guns more often.

See where I am going? The powers that you always seem to call out may not always be in a position to soften up tension that comes from within a specific community, that said, don't always be so quick to call them unjust and blame them for it.

Also there are many flavors of justice, and many ways to brand it, one thing does seem common however, it always seems that a true lack of justice will only be pointed out to mask the fact some one some where wants something.

Saying what is unjust can be compared to working almost like a sexual innuendo.

 

[Prapor]

LeMask, no injustice in North Caucasus is an excuse for Beslan, Nord Ost (Moscow theater), or the Metro bombing.

 

[LeMask]

Some might disagree... The justification behind these bombings is that they are attacks on an "evil power". Once you have the "evil power" tag on your forehead, anything harming you is labeled as a "good action".

Justice, human right, social justice are the only solutions to stop lower drastically these kinds of events.

You have to understand that when the strong bullies the weak, economically or militarily... Unconventional violence is the preferred answer.

In the Tchetchenia, you see a huge power like Russia crushing simple people... You see human rights abuses, mass bombings etc...

And look at Afghanistan, they used conventional violence every time they found a way to do it...

What I'm talking about here is a notion of equilibrium. Conventional warfare have to be a viable option. And dont le the others label you as "an evil power".

The dominant guy is always wrong... We are human beings, not dogs.

 

[KV.]

Well, to explain the attacks on soft targets, it's pretty obvious.

They explained these attacks a long time ago. Let's take Al-Quaeda founders as an example. It started in Egypt when they attacked the president. They did this suicidal move thinking that the people of Egypt would rise once the snake is decapitated.

But they didnt, they left the military take on the extremists who were pretty much alone. They jailed them, tortured them, executed them etc...

So they think that the Muslims are corrupted by the western media/life style/culture etc... That they grew soft and that they are afraid to do their duty toward god... To take weapons to tackle the corrupt regimes ruling their countries...

So, once you think like that, you can target the civilians like you would target military targets...

And if you look carefully, they dont target any civilians... They dont bomb a shantytown or a mosque (from their own religious school). they bomb nightclubs, hotels, touristic areas etc...

In Morroco, the 16 May they bombed Casablanca. And guess where they bombed? they bombed a rich neighborhood, they bombed Villa Espagnole, some sort of expensive restaurant etc... And I've seen these kinds of places, the common people cant afford a meal there... Way too expensive.

And if you went to a nightclub in these countries, you would see a crowd of young people in front of the entrance, and you know that the will never get in unless they start dealing drugs and making tons of money... And it's these guys who cant enjoy life, who have an artificial and unreachable paradise in front of them who develop a hatred for the whole society... These are the young men who blow themselves up...

I recall an incident in RC(S) back in 2008 - a suicidebomber walks into a bazaar, blows himself and more than 30 innocent civilians up. No CF, ANA, ANP, or the likes nearby. Just civilians doing their daily shopping.
How is that possible when its western societies, western values, western ways they hate ?
This incident probably didn't get far out of Afghan, so I will be surprised if you've even heard of it.

Hmmm I would say social justice...

And social solidarity. We often forget that a kamikaze bomber commits suicide. We focus on the destruction they cause, and we forget that they killed themselves...

We say that the Jewish communties are the ones who suffer the least from suicides. Because their traditions push them to help each others.

If we started to care for our fellow citizens, we will have less problems...

We can exterminate these people with nothing to lose by giving them something to lose...

So I should feel sorry for family of the suicidebomber who just detonated himself - just the same as for the families of my two friends, he has just killed ?

Some might disagree... The justification behind these bombings is that they are attacks on an "evil power". Once you have the "evil power" tag on your forehead, anything harming you is labeled as a "good action".

Justice, human right, social justice are the only solutions to stop lower drastically these kinds of events.

You have to understand that when the strong bullies the weak, economically or militarily... Unconventional violence is the preferred answer.

In the Tchetchenia, you see a huge power like Russia crushing simple people... You see human rights abuses, mass bombings etc...

And look at Afghanistan, they used conventional violence every time they found a way to do it...

What I'm talking about here is a notion of equilibrium. Conventional warfare have to be a viable option. And dont le the others label you as "an evil power".

The dominant guy is always wrong... We are human beings, not dogs.

And what do you, as a civilian, mean by "conventional warfare" LeMask ?

 

[LeMask]

KV, the situation is very complex, and so are the motivations behind it... And of course, there is operational errors, like when a suicide bomber gets cornered and blows his stuff up where he is even if it's not his target...

The craziest attack I've seen was in Iraq when they blew up an area where they sell books. They bombed Corans and holy books... Very weird symbols for religious people.

They can bomb each others if the people in the area follow a different religious doctrine, if they accept foreign help, for political reasons... etc...

The list is just huge. Extremist can go very far by definition.

And honestly mate, I dont care if you feel sorry for the suicidal bastard or not... My point is that because you hate him or because you are afraid of him, you forget that he is a human being... And that there is a reason behind his actions.

I'm not asking you to feel sorry for a meteor landing on your grandma... To think about how he enjoyed flying in space to cry for him.

Well, by disarming people, you also deny them the tools to defend themselves when they are attacked by a bully. And you corrupt yourself by being too strong, because once you are all powerful, you start to behave like a bully...

We are not wise in victory my friend. We need equality between world citizens... Let's face it, conventional warfare is suicide for many countries. To defend themselves from foreign powers, the use of unconventional means is unavoidable.

If tomorrow, the US start to live like a third world country, how many will commit suicide? And why should they throw themselves from the window rather than to suicide bomb the people who did this to them?

I know it's a lot of "what if" I dont like that neither... But just to explain how desperate people can do crazy things...

 

[Yossarian]

I hate them with full knowledge that they are human beings, but I do not blindley distaste them, and do not sanction barbaric action in the struggle against them. But they attacked HERE,where I live, fear has nothing to do with it, if they found me, yea they would most likely do something drastic, like beat me to death, light me on fire, starve me and hold me ransom, no surprise there, it would be painful yes, but also it would be at the hands on men, just as capable as I am in this world.

And what they do undoubtedly cannot be legitimized, I don't care if they labeled me the Anti Christ and told all their insurgent friends about me, that by no means makes their actions acceptable towards any attacks on civilians.

Not in one single instance, don't care what country they belong to and how they are at odds with it, sure you can point out a Predator or Global hawk firing a hellfire at a target in a village, but since you are so quick to point out situational circumstances on why a terrorist might have detonated early killing innocents with no political or military or psychological value because he was "cornered".

But when they seek refuge surrounded by innocents, it is very regrettable to say that sometimes civilian causalities wind their way into a campgain, doesn't take a human rights activist to see that. Also it is not like Russia in Chechnya went out to kill every innocent man woman and child, and the Coalition out to blow up every village they see harboring at least one insurgent or 10,000. I just don't see it setting right on the conscious of either country in either situation, and what I mean by countries, is on the minds of those executing the campaign and all loved ones back home, not just most of the leaders.

 

[LeMask]

Well, What I mean is that we have to know the enemy to destroy it... No body is trying to legitimate anything they are doing...

You shouldnt let your emotions, your fears dictate how you will react to a threat.

And about the story between Russia and the Chechen, it's pretty obvious. Russia should stop abusing the neighboring countries with it's powerful military. I dont call this building anything solid but building an empire and ruling it by force and death threats.

You wont get anything out of Muslims by use of force. Believe it or not, they are a civilized people and violence will only buy you their fidelity for a little moment, at the first occasion they will back stab you.

And by abusing violence and destruction, you will have to deal with people with nothing to lose. And they are capable of everything...

We have to break the cycle of violence.

 

[Yossarian]

Well, What I mean is that we have to know the enemy to destroy it... No body is trying to legitimate anything they are doing...

You shouldn't let your emotions, your fears dictate how you will react to a threat.

And about the story between Russia and the Chechen, it's pretty obvious. Russia should stop abusing the neighboring countries with it's powerful military. I don't call this building anything solid but building an empire and ruling it by force and death threats.

You wont get anything out of Muslims by use of force. Believe it or not, they are a civilized people and violence will only buy you their fidelity for a little moment, at the first occasion they will back stab you.

And by abusing violence and destruction, you will have to deal with people with nothing to lose. And they are capable of everything...

We have to break the cycle of violence.

What about internal violence among Muslims? And I already acknowledge the fact that the Islamic world is one rich in history and very very dynamic, stated that earlier, and yes keeping emotion out of campaign planning is a very understandable descion, I ALSO stated that earlier. But always jumping into their affairs is not a good idea either.

But regardless of the fact, while you attempt to break the cycle of violence, which would be the long term goal, you will still have to be prepared to react to threats, proper response of force to protect yourself and any allies, it's easy to break the chain of violence by bending down to your knees and letting the enemy have his way with you just for the sake of peace.

Also mentioned earlier, peace, does not constitute freedom.

 

[LeMask]

What do you call a Muslim?

If you see a Muslim in a bar taking a beer, for you it's a Muslim. But for an extremist, it's an infidel they have to bring down at all cost...

It's a complex world out there...

And we can leave in peace without bending out to anyone... Are you aware that they are thinking the same? That they are thinking "why should I bend over to the Western Powers to have a miserable peace?"

We are the ones supporting corrupt regimes and crushing them economically... Let's be honest with each others for a minute here.

They didnt land on us, we landed on them. Since the end of WWII the USA went in a crazy delirium trying to control the world...

The list of US backed dictators is huge. And then the Europeans have a long history of misdeeds in the colonial era... Then you have Israel with a huge history for human rights abuses...

Russia and the USSR have their history too. We should arrest the corrupt bastards who destroyed so many lives for money and power... And then, once we have cleaned our populations and our economic system... Then maybe we might have the right to say "why should we bend over for peace?"

And make no mistakes, the criminals who are destroying Africa today will do the same to you in the future. They will pillage Europe and America when they will be done with the third world countries...

 

[KV.]

And by abusing violence and destruction, you will have to deal with people with nothing to lose. And they are capable of everything...

We have to break the cycle of violence.

So we should just roll over and let be what is - that it LeMask?

 

[LeMask]

Well, it's obvious actually.

What are the ingredients we need to make terror?

Poverty, poor education, no perspectives of a good future, frustration, hatred, etc...

And? An event to provoke the meltdown.

The ingredients as you know are plentiful, the events to provoke terrorism are obvious, Illegal wars, war crimes, human rights abuses, disrespect of an entire civilization/religion/people/country/ethnic group...

People just snap, like these kids who take guns and shoot people in highschool... Jealousy and hate can do that... And these are just kids being mean with each others...

 

[KV.]

You didn't answer the question LeMask - you're just stating your well-known opinion.

And you brought up the subject - so please stick with the discussion and give an answer.

 

[LeMask]

Sorry, didnt understand that it was an actual question...

Well, we have to extend the fight. We have a powerful military force, and we behave like a man with a hammer who is seeing nails everywhere...

We have to limit the use of violence. We have to invest in our intelligence network to limit the damage.

And then we have to wage war on poverty and crime. We have to adopt a new economic system. We have to pressure the governments in the third world countries to force them to respect human rights. We have to help the moderate Muslims who are silent. They are the honest working people in their lands... we wont build anything in these countries without their direct help.
We have to aim our police forces on the big players in crime rings... We have to unleash our justice system on the big corporations. We have to invest on renewable energy to say fu** off to the Saudis and their oil.
We have to find a solution for peace between the Palestinians and the Israeli. We should end the economic war between countries, the race over resources...

We should pull out our troops from foreign countries and support the regimes who fight corruption and respect human rights...

Do this and you will put the extremists, Islamists or not, out of business...

 

[KV.]

Sorry, didnt understand that it was an actual question...

Well, we have to extend the fight. We have a powerful military force, and we behave like a man with a hammer who is seeing nails everywhere...

We have to limit the use of violence. We have to invest in our intelligence network to limit the damage.

And then we have to wage war on poverty and crime. We have to adopt a new economic system. We have to pressure the governments in the third world countries to force them to respect human rights. We have to help the moderate Muslims who are silent. They are the honest working people in their lands... we wont build anything in these countries without their direct help.
We have to aim our police forces on the big players in crime rings... We have to unleash our justice system on the big corporations. We have to invest on renewable energy to say fu** off to the Saudis and their oil.
We have to find a solution for peace between the Palestinians and the Israeli. We should end the economic war between countries, the race over resources...

We should pull out our troops from foreign countries and support the regimes who fight corruption and respect human rights...

Do this and you will put the extremists, Islamists or not, out of business...

So we should limit our use of violence but extend our military action ??? I don't follow... So you think we should keep soldiers on the ground but not allow them to fire their weapons ?
You also state that we should pull out foreign troops deployed overseas - which is it? Extend military presence or pull out ???

How should an investment in the intelligence network limit damage without the ability to take pre-emptive actions?

How do you pressure third world governments into accepting Human rights. - No use of violence, so airstrikes etc. is out of the question. Embargo's would only enforce poverty and crime in already poor and almost outlaw countries/states. So where is the pressure applied ?

How are the big companies involved in the terrorism/wars around the globe ?

Solution to the Israel - Palestine conflict ? You find that and you'll get a Nobel Peace prize gauranteed !

End the economic war, and the race for ressources, how ? Everyone, including governments and all companies and, should just stop making money ? Sounds a bit like you want everyone to embrace yet another branch of communism ?

So which regimes fights corruption and respects human rights - name a few and how we should we back them. And how does us backing them gaurantee a stabile region ?

 

[LeMask]

I said extend the fight. We should limit the use of violence to accurate strikes when they start to act. As long as there is a chance to see them give up the attacks, we should take it.

Preemptive strikes are sterile. The first mistake will turn the whole campaign into a disaster. We have to wage war defensively. Harm them only when they are trying to harm us.

Dont be naive my friend, we are in bed with these governments, all we have to do is turn our head to the side and tell them "stop that."
Even the generals in Burma get their money from Western oil compagnies. They need the Western support to live. They will do what we tell them. They wont resist, as they are already rich, all we have to do is to tell them that the honeymoon is over and that they have to leave...

We managed to put our of power democratically elected governments... Dictators are a piece of cake next to them. And even if they resist, our military will take them down with the benediction of the whole world. With the support of the locals...

Big compagnies make too much money, the distribution of the generated wealth is a source of corruption.
And do you know that the first thing the oil compagnies do is financing terrorist groups to have "stability". They often pay terrorist groups so they dont attack their tankers/pipelines/employees... But I wasnt talking about that.

Solution for Israel? Sure. Tell the Zionists that the Palestinians have the same rights they have... And then watch. Equality my man.

I'm not a communist. I just say that we should start to exploit others ressources... Like sun power. That we should make cars that dont require new parts every year etc... Simple use of technology. Once we endless ressources, we will stop killing each others for oil. And we will start to like China.

Regimes are people. We give power to the economic elite who want to wage war for power and resources. We get power hungry regimes.

Give the power to the people who want respect human rights and you will get human regimes.

Remember Commandant Massoud in Afghanistan? These were people we could support. He was trying to fix the country.

 

[Yossarian]

Le Mask you are beginning to talk in circles, first you stated that use of military violence can provoke terrorism.

Then you state more military action is needed, mind you the military specializes in the use of force, hence, thats why a military action obviously would include it, if force either offensively or defensively, if force is not needed, then send aid groups because then the situation would be almost defused.

Also, you never did answer, what do you give the militants? You said that the coalition or even in Russia that we should give them something?

That's what they are fighting for, to get something ,in most cases are just as bad and usually worse than the governmental organizations they are fighting against. Their ends do not justify the means.

So pick your poison Le Mask, cause you cannot invite all the people of the world to the same dinner party.

 

[KV.]

I said extend the fight. We should limit the use of violence to accurate strikes when they start to act. As long as there is a chance to see them give up the attacks, we should take it.

Preemptive strikes are sterile. The first mistake will turn the whole campaign into a disaster. We have to wage war defensively. Harm them only when they are trying to harm us. [/QUOTE]

So what happened to, and I quote; "we have to break the cycle of violence" ?

Dont be naive my friend, we are in bed with these governments, all we have to do is turn our head to the side and tell them "stop that."
Even the generals in Burma get their money from Western oil compagnies. They need the Western support to live. They will do what we tell them. They wont resist, as they are already rich, all we have to do is to tell them that the honeymoon is over and that they have to leave...

So now all the western governments are in bed with all third world governments - right ? Oh well we'll just tell the goverment of ... let say Somalia to stop the piracy ... oh wait I forgot - there is no government. You can accuse me of being naive and stupid, but think your arguments through. But I get it - its all a big conspiracy right ? Its all the oil companies who are running the world right ?

We managed to put our of power democratically elected governments... Dictators are a piece of cake next to them. And even if they resist, our military will take them down with the benediction of the whole world. With the support of the locals...

And we're back at the quote; "we have to break the cycle of violence"

Big compagnies make too much money, the distribution of the generated wealth is a source of corruption.
And do you know that the first thing the oil compagnies do is financing terrorist groups to have "stability". They often pay terrorist groups so they dont attack their tankers/pipelines/employees... But I wasnt talking about that.

Riiiiight - so that is why the oil pipelines in for example Kazakhstan is NOT a target for attack by Islamist extremetist. Do your research dude, just an example; Hizb ut-Tahrir al-Islami is operating in Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan Tajikistan and Kazakhstan and are posing a real threat to the oil pipelines in the area.
Now its my turn to tell you not to be naive; oil rigs, pipelines etc are a favored target by terrorist - why ? Because western societies depend on oil for everything, power, gas, everything. On the top the western oil companies are prime targets on the psycologic level too. As they represent all they hate about the west. Don't hate the messenger - but if you cared to read up a bit on the subject you'd know.

Solution for Israel? Sure. Tell the Zionists that the Palestinians have the same rights they have... And then watch. Equality my man.

Are you serious ??? That is your solution to the conflict - you're not even trying to argument your case now - that is just retarded.
When have the Israeli's ever accepted the Palestinians as equals ??? So the settlements in Palestine are to be considered peace offerings right ???

I'm not a communist. I just say that we should start to exploit others ressources... Like sun power. That we should make cars that dont require new parts every year etc... Simple use of technology. Once we endless ressources, we will stop killing each others for oil. And we will start to like China.

First subject on which I agree with you - the world should invest more in research and use of alternative energi. But where did China suddenly come into the picture - are they all of a sudden on the forefront of alternative energi ???

Regimes are people. We give power to the economic elite who want to wage war for power and resources. We get power hungry regimes.

Give the power to the people who want respect human rights and you will get human regimes.

So how should that new political system look like then ? No leaders everyone is their own leader - that is called anarchi LeMask.

Remember Commandant Massoud in Afghanistan? These were people we could support. He was trying to fix the country.

True - but he was killed pre 9/11 - so what is your point...


Well this was about 10 min of my life I'll never get back.

I won't let this discussion take up anymore of my time as I think your arguments are inconsistant and you generally avoid answering the questions asked, so you instead can state your own agenda.
Actually you should run for government - probably do well.

Feel free to spew any insults at me, I won't respond so you can just let loose mate.

To the author of this Thread: I apologise for the spam in this thread. (As I have accused many other of in other threads, now I fell under the spam-bug myself).