Atheists in Glass Houses Shouldn't Throw Stones
MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
And the point is what?
Dawkin's argument is that the poll shows a lot of people that call themselves Christians do not follow or know Christian tenants not that they don't know the name of a book or is it your contention that in order to be an Atheist you must know the full title of Darwin's Origin of Species?
Dawkin's argument is that the poll shows a lot of people that call themselves Christians do not follow or know Christian tenants not that they don't know the name of a book or is it your contention that in order to be an Atheist you must know the full title of Darwin's Origin of Species?
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muscogeemike
Active member
I believe that Darwin did not mean for his writings to be anti religious and he never mentions apes or monkey’s - or that humans descended from them. Something the religious zealots never mention and probably don’t know.
But, as you said, most so called Christians don’t really follow Christ’s teachings and don’t really know the bible.
MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
I agree, there seems to be a concerted effort to tie Evolution to Atheism and the monkey/ape argument is the flag bearer for the God Squad but it is one of those interesting battles as you are correct he does not say we were descended from them but rather that we have a common ancestor.
However religion had the same issues with Galileo and I like his response a lot "The bible tells us how to go to heaven, not how the heavens go".
Religion should just stick to what it knows best, offering the weak a way out and fleecing the poor.
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captiva303
Active member
who is Dawkins to decide what a person beliefs are? If someone self identifies as something I wouldn't argue the point with them.
MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
He isn't deciding what a persons beliefs are he is saying that there are people who don't:
- Read the Bible.
- Go to church.
- Believe Jesus was the son of god.
- Know what the first book of the new testament is.
Calling themselves Christians.
Tell me what are the prerequisites for being a Christian if it isn't believing Jesus is the son of God?
captiva303
Active member
True, but it is a pointless argument. If someone self identifies as such how can you say they are anything but? It comes done to the individual and what they think they are, and not what they actually believe. Perception of self will overrule any logical approach to classifying the religious .
senojekips
Active member
Pointless??,.... It is logic such as yours that supports the very argument you are attempting to deny.
If I choose to tell people I'm an astronomer yet I can't name half a dozen stars in the sky, no amount of "self perception" will make me an astronomer.
There's an old saying along these lines, "Going to church will no more make me a christian than sitting in a carport will make me an automobile". As was pointed out here, the same applies to most people who insist that they are "christians".
.
If I choose to tell people I'm an astronomer yet I can't name half a dozen stars in the sky, no amount of "self perception" will make me an astronomer.
There's an old saying along these lines, "Going to church will no more make me a christian than sitting in a carport will make me an automobile". As was pointed out here, the same applies to most people who insist that they are "christians".
.
captiva303
Active member
Yes pointless.
The qualifications for an astronomer are externally defined where as what a person believes is determined by themselves. Simply telling someone they don't believe in a sky fairy wont change how they identify themselves. Believe it or not they wont give a sh!t if you think they dont stack up to your definition of what they call themselves.
So yes that is a pointless argument.
The qualifications for an astronomer are externally defined where as what a person believes is determined by themselves. Simply telling someone they don't believe in a sky fairy wont change how they identify themselves. Believe it or not they wont give a sh!t if you think they dont stack up to your definition of what they call themselves.
So yes that is a pointless argument.
senojekips
Active member
It's not pointless in your case, it's self defeating.
Effectively you are saying that to be a christian you don't need to have any standards, just "a belief" that you are one? That appears to be precisely the point that MontyB was making.
Just what exactly are you trying to say?
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If you tell people you are an astronomer and you can only name half a dozen stars that makes you a lousy astronomer, but still an astronomer.
There's a difference between a religious christian and a cultural christian. Most "christians" are cultural christians.
senojekips
Active member
Rubbish!... The world's population are not nearly all astronomers. Fortunately, unlike most christians, they are well aware of the fact. I can quickly identify nearly all of the major "navigational' stars (and a few other celestial objects), and I've frequently scanned the heavens with binoculars and telescopes, but if I were to call myself an astronomer, I'd be laughed out of the room and declared a fraud.
"Cultural christians" have the same credibility as my claim to being an astronomer. They are no more than frauds.
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[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxG4Kji-u28"]Richard Dawkins Owned, Note he did not answer the question - YouTube[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9W4e4MwogLo&feature=related"]IS RICHARD DAWKINS REALLY STUMPED? The TRUTH - In His OWN WORDS - YES...he is! - YouTube[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9W4e4MwogLo&feature=related"]IS RICHARD DAWKINS REALLY STUMPED? The TRUTH - In His OWN WORDS - YES...he is! - YouTube[/ame]
senojekips
Active member
Without even bothering to watch, I'd say he's probably considering his answer because unlike christians, he has to base his answers on facts, not merely on a belief or blind "faith'.
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Chief Bones
Forums Grumpy Old Man
Christian or non-Christian ... as an agnostic, I just wish everybody would just shut the hell up about following or not following the Christian "good book". Even so-called Christians seem to be unable to follow all of the commandments etc that are outlined in the Bible. As far as Muslims and other adherents of various religions, they can NOT follow their own religious beliefs.
We would be further ahead if everybody would just let everybody else the hell alone.
Religion is a pain in the arse as far as I am concerned.
We would be further ahead if everybody would just let everybody else the hell alone.
Religion is a pain in the arse as far as I am concerned.
Trooper1854
The Brit Pack
AMEN to that!
senojekips
Active member
If neither of you are so damned interested, why are you both here reading the thread? More to the point, why are you throwing your hat in the ring?
I have no interest in the US Sports Forum, the Computers and Games, War gaming, or Militaria forums, or a lot of others. Do you see me in there telling those who are interested to shut up, and stop commenting about their favourite teams, games, collectibles or whatever,... just because I'm not interested?
If you have no interest, the answer is really easy,.... just go away.
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Chief Bones
Forums Grumpy Old Man
nojkip ...
I made my comment because there was a comment posted in this thread that caught my eye, and I had something to say about it.
If it gets a rise out of you and the other Christian hypocrites .. then all to the better. Like I said .. Christian hypocrites try to state they are taking the high road and I state they are just grubbing around in the mud. I guess appearances tell the real tale don't they.
Don't like us agnostics talking about the way it really is, then shut up. We would really rather discuss politics instead of religion. Of course, to these hypocrite Christians, religion IS political - (they would like the Christian religion to be the state religion and are upset when anyone doesn't believe as they do and have the gonads to say so).
I CAN'T REALLY STATE HOW I REALLY BELIEVE .. IT WOULD LEAD TO ME BEING BANNED FOR A VERY LONG TIME BECAUSE IT WOULD BE VIEWED AS AN ATTACK AGAINST CHRISTIAN BIGOTS, ETC.
I made my comment because there was a comment posted in this thread that caught my eye, and I had something to say about it.
If it gets a rise out of you and the other Christian hypocrites .. then all to the better. Like I said .. Christian hypocrites try to state they are taking the high road and I state they are just grubbing around in the mud. I guess appearances tell the real tale don't they.
Don't like us agnostics talking about the way it really is, then shut up. We would really rather discuss politics instead of religion. Of course, to these hypocrite Christians, religion IS political - (they would like the Christian religion to be the state religion and are upset when anyone doesn't believe as they do and have the gonads to say so).
I CAN'T REALLY STATE HOW I REALLY BELIEVE .. IT WOULD LEAD TO ME BEING BANNED FOR A VERY LONG TIME BECAUSE IT WOULD BE VIEWED AS AN ATTACK AGAINST CHRISTIAN BIGOTS, ETC.
Trooper1854
The Brit Pack
What gives you the right to be so rude and ignorant?
I am interested and I have a right to comment as much as anyone else and if you don't like it then tough luck!
Time you wound it in mate because I am sure that face to face you wouldn't speak to people the way you do here!
every astronomer once started with almost no knowledge about the universe. Some studied on their own others went to school and some got a PhD.
Then you better look up what cultural christians are.