Armenian.. Genocide or War? - Page 6




 
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May 26th, 2006  
oRTouCH
 
 
We opened our archives but where are ur historians???
No answer to this...

Lil ,my fathers grandfather was sent there at these times and he told us the masaccres of Armenians. If anyone attacks you what should you do? You should kill em. But we didnt do it. We sent them to Syria cuz they were our citizens and we need bullet at this times and its not logical for Turkey to use bullets against them. Cuz at these times we were fighting against British forces in west . If we wanted to make a genocide we could have done it years before. If we made a genocide why we waited to make it in the 1 st WW?
May 26th, 2006  
oRTouCH
 
 
Sorry I am writing the same things... I am not saying anything anymore.
Cuz if Armenia accepts that there is no genocide you will still belive that we made a genocide. You should make a real search for truths. Don't close ur eyes to truths. I am Turkish and I am livin' inside of the events and its normal that you can not understand me.

Ok I accepted. I am the loser, you win. We did a genocide . From now on I wont talk on this event on this Thread anymore. Becuse I really feel tired.
Have fun guys. See ya in another threads.
May 26th, 2006  
Ollie Garchy
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean
(1) It can be very successfully argued that the changes that have occurred to the North American Aboriginal population and culture are as much due to the needs and pressures of living in the modern world as they are to the actions of the white colonizers. I know that they are specious arguments, but that is how we in North America rationalize it. To counter that argument, I always use the same point: What about the Beothuk? After I explain who the Beothuk were, the argument is usually over.

(2) He was dead wrong about the French...As for the rest of his comments, it perfectly fits my other example. Roosevelt glossed over the actions of his own ancestors (the English) and justified their actions using an argument that I could blow huge holes through.

(3) The reason that the holocaust is used as an example is due to the fact that it was so well documented that it can be studied in the smallest degree, and from many different fields. You can easily study the mechanics and organization of large and small units, the economic costs and benefits of exterminating the Jews, the psychology of both the victims and those who carried out the murders, how mob psychology was used to turn ordinary Germans against the Jews, etc. etc. In every other example of a genocide, people were not stupid enough to leave such detailed documentation, and the perpetrators could never be questioned.

(4) If you take the example of the Armenian genocide, there is little if any valid archival evidence, all of the eye-witnesses are dead, all of the perpetrators are dead, and all of the memories of the victims and the perpetrators are second-hand. Hardly a good example to teach others about how to avoid another such occurance... But there is (unfortunately) another example that will be very useful for education, particularly in Africa, and that is the Rwandan genocide. As more and more evidence comes to light, we see the repetition of the same patterns that led to the genocides in Germany and Armenia. And it happened, what, ten years ago?

(5) The trouble with normal is that it always gets worse.....
Greetings Dean,

a couple of issues: [I don't want to deal with the North American Indian or Black slavery issues...don't have the time]

(1) The examples of Churchill & Roosevelt were only intended to underline your point concerning subjective white-washing. It was not my intention to start a debate over defining the demise of aboriginal peoples in Anglo-Saxon "Lebensraum". One thing, though. The Turks (ortouch) argue the same point, namely that Armenians did not face "genocide". Selective murder, yes. Genocide, no. They ask the same questions: (a) where is the documentary evidence and (b) why are there still Armenians running around today? This type of debate irks me.

(2) The comments were chosen because they fit well with your point. By the way, Roosevelt's ancestry was German and Anglo-Saxon...the normal condition of the United States where Germans represent around 20% of the population and are still the largest minority. Roosevelt's mentality was however more English than American. He fully absorbed the social-darwinism of his age. The "validity" of these beliefs is not the issue...their dangers, however.

(3) The survival of evidence did not influence the decisions to analyse the Holocaust in great detail. The Holocaust, according to Peter Novick, was hardly studied between 1945-1970. Other more political factors came into play after 1967. In any case, your use of the word "ordinary" brings up the discredited theories of Daniel Goldhagen. His notion of "ordinary" responsibility has been bitterly attacked by Raul Hillberg and others (including Christopher Browning) for rather important reasons. I do know that Goldhagen, despite his intellectual "demise", is still taught at Canadian schools and universities. That fact has more to do with dominant Canadian cultural perspectives and less with historiographical developments.

(4) The Armenian Holocaust was well-documented at the time...with reports from the British, German and French governments. In terms of the eye-witness accounts, either by victims or others, these are just as "credible" as those of the Jewish survivors...most of whom having also died over the last 60 years. In any case, Ruanda is only one example of many. Current or modern genocides and ethnic-cleansing operations (either wholesale or classes or elite) include the following: Congo, Ruanda, Kosovo, East Timor, Dafur, Soviet Union (multiple), China (multiple), etc.

(5) Everything is getting worse, these days.
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May 27th, 2006  
oRTouCH
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charge 7
There are places in Turkey where the skulls are still stacked like bricks.
Can you prove these words? If you prove them, I will accept that we made a genocide and I will break my tooth!
May 27th, 2006  
Lilmissflamethrower
 
 
Are you Turkish by chance Dean? You seem to have a problem with allowing the realilty of the Armenian genocide.

My grandmother didn't teach me cruelties in the least. She had not a mean vengeful bone in her body. She just told me what happened to her family. And then I saw photos of the skulls piled up in various magazines.

I made the connections myself..

Yes it is a shame the lessons of genocide don't seem to kick in with the Turkish kids, probably because it is very hard to admit to wrong doing. And of course I don't blame the current Turkish generation, nor do my Armenian peers. We just want the record set straight.
May 27th, 2006  
Dean
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilmissflamethrower
Are you Turkish by chance Dean? You seem to have a problem with allowing the realilty of the Armenian genocide.
I am Canadian, and I think you should re-read all my posts on the subject.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilmissflamethrower
My grandmother didn't teach me cruelties in the least. She had not a mean vengeful bone in her body. She just told me what happened to her family. And then I saw photos of the skulls piled up in various magazines.
I have never been exposed to those magazines myself, and I have no family, friends, or others who were in any way exposed to the Armenian Genocide. My opinions were formed one day about 13 years ago when I walked into a library and started reading up on the subject. My beliefs are clearly stated in my posts. Please read them before drawing your wrong conclusions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilmissflamethrower
]I made the connections myself..
Good for you. So did I.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilmissflamethrower
Yes it is a shame the lessons of genocide don't seem to kick in with the Turkish kids, probably because it is very hard to admit to wrong doing. And of course I don't blame the current Turkish generation, nor do my Armenian peers. We just want the record set straight.
I am glad to hear that. I really can't blame the current Turkish government for many things, but I do think (as previously stated) that they should admit that a genocide did occur. I stated in another post why such an admission is highly unlikely, and I also stated why the Turkish government owes nothing in retribution.

Dean.
May 27th, 2006  
Lilmissflamethrower
 
 
I thought so, but you seem to contradict yourself at times. No one that I know is asking the government for retribution (do you mean financial award?) Although the armenian's whose banks accounts were seized should get them back. I hear that some insurance companies here have not paid claims to Armenians that had money owed, same for bank accounts, etc.

All we want is to set the historical record straight.
May 28th, 2006  
Dean
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilmissflamethrower
I thought so, but you seem to contradict yourself at times.
When I an discussing contentious issues, I always try to choose my words carefully so as to avoid mis-interpretation. (Something I think we should all do. I do this for many reasons, most of all because I refuse to hide behind a keyboard. Dean is my real name, the members map points to my real address. It is a very simple way to keep myself from shooting off at the mouth.) I stated my beliefs with regards to this issue in a very clear manner. At times, I also tried to present reasons and the point of view of people who try to say that a given ggenocide did not occur. This was during an exchange I was having with Ollie Garchy in this thread, but at no time did I ever say that the Amrenian massacres did not occur. Quite the contrary, I stated, "If you stay with the Turkish example, the incredible hatred that Turks have for the Armenians can easily blind them to the reality of the crimes that they committed." Hardly contradictory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilmissflamethrower
No one that I know is asking the government for retribution (do you mean financial award?) Although the armenian's whose banks accounts were seized should get them back. I hear that some insurance companies here have not paid claims to Armenians that had money owed, same for bank accounts, etc.
You may not be asking, but since the Germans and Swiss started to pay out money owed to Jews since WW II, other groups have been asking for their "fair share" of someone else's pie. Many American Blacks feel that they should be paid due to the the fact that their ancestors were slaves, and as an attempt to re-dress the social inequality that has existed sicne then. Unfortunately, as soon as someone admits responsibility for an act, demands for financial retribution are usually ten seconds behind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilmissflamethrower
All we want is to set the historical record straight.
Gotta go, I'll edit later.

Dean.
May 28th, 2006  
Reiben
 
 
ABC news report with some disturbing pictures. It is not anti Turkish.
http://www.ourararat.com/movies/abcnews.WMV

Site with photos, I have posted the Turkish version. There is an English version.
http://www.24april1915.com/far/home.html

I think these pictures are the most powerful and disturbing
http://www.armeniapedia.org/index.ph...enocide_Photos

And more photos
http://www.genocide1915.info/pictures.asp
http://www.armeniangenocide.com/photos/
May 28th, 2006  
oRTouCH
 
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reiben
ABC news report with some disturbing pictures. It is not anti Turkish.
http://www.ourararat.com/movies/abcnews.WMV

Site with photos, I have posted the Turkish version. There is an English version.
http://www.24april1915.com/far/home.html

I think these pictures are the most powerful and disturbing
http://www.armeniapedia.org/index.ph...enocide_Photos

And more photos
http://www.genocide1915.info/pictures.asp
http://www.armeniangenocide.com/photos/
The second site that you give is not Turkish. Its Arabic. And also in the other sites there are some photos yes. But I have a web site that says these photos are faked and in fact what are these photos..

Have a Look at this site and see how the photos are faked.
http://www.geocities.com/t_volunteer/armenian/index.htm In Distorted Photos