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Dean. |
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Something else that I should have mentioned 'way back when at the beginning of the thread. The Question that the original poster asked was whether the the whole incident should have been classed as a genocides, or as a war. There is no way that this could have been considered a war for a number of reasons. First of all, the obvious point, there never was a declaration of war either by Armenia or by the Ottoman Empire. Many will scoff at this but at that time, countries did not march until the declaration was delivered. In addition, most Armenians werwe actually part of the Turkish military, and they were apparently disarmed and in many cases arrested and or executed, depending, of course, on whom you choose to believe. Either way, this left the Turks without someting you need very badly for a war, this being an enemy force. Now according to the Turks, there were some battles, but they have passed mostly unnoticed by history, and even the Turks themselves are silent on the Turkish casualties. Usually there are monuments to the dead of the victorious glorious army, websites that tell about them, historical organizations that keep the memories alive, yadda, yadda, yadda... this seems to have been the least publicized war in history. So, if it was not a war, I guess it must have been something else, this being an organized attempt by government forces to remove an indiginent population from a large geographical area. At best, we call it ethnic cleansing, at worst genocide.
Dean. |
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<<This is what I meant by archival evidence. When the Ottoman Empire fell, many of the archives seem to have been badly compromised, particularly with regards to crimes committed and the punishment thereof. As a result, any references to the Armenian massacre cannot be found in the Turkish Archives. Of course, this opens another conumdrum, this being that the present-day Turkish government is loathe to admit any responsibility given that responsibility cannot be proven using their own archives. >>
Most countries to try to keep evidence of their crimes lying around! I am glad to hear you are on my side. I have lived with too much love for my grandmother to hear her slandered. She was a sweet innocent lady who kept faith in God and a cheerful spirit all her life (which defies belief in my mind - I would be one pissed off ***** if I lived through that). I have seen the photos myself way before photoshop was invented. A friend of mine who grew up in Germany told me in the class room where she sat with Turkish kids, the boys would deny the genocide on one hand, and brag about how their grandfathers gang raped Armenian women in the next breath. Those boys better be thankful I wasn't in that classroom to hear that is all I can say. |
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(2) Ollie's German Sources: Some posts wanted non-Armenian descriptions and I offered links to German sources in response. I translated a bit of the stuff. Most people will not be able to verify my translations, but that's life. The links do at least demonstrate the dimensions of the evidence. By the way, my "humour" was actually more sarcasm than anything else. (3) Holocaust Studies? Useless?: I want to return to what I think is a severe problem. The central lesson of Holocaust studies is aimed against the future repetition of genocide. Lilmissflamethrower's comment concerning the attitudes of Turkish children brings up an interesting point. If Turkish children can live in Germany, or Canada, or anywhere in the west and still maintain the normal illusions of genocide, what does this tell us about Holocaust education? Sort of on the failed side, huh. |
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Kinda scary, actually. Dean. |
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Since we are also talking about genocide as a general problem, what does your assertion tell us about the following people and cultures: (1) Churchill: "I do not admit that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race, has come in and taken their place". (1937) (2) F.D. Roosevelt: "With the exception of the English colonization of North America, Roosevelt viewed the European race for colonies as a manifestation of the forces of imperialism, militarism, and reaction. Roosevelt portrayed Spanish colonization on behalf of “His Most Catholic Majesty” as “a false glory,” bent solely on “exploitation” and producing only a hybrid race that was “part cavalier, part Indian, later on in part negro.” Similarly, Roosevelt portrayed French efforts prior to the establishment of English colonies in North America as little better, afraid of competition and focused on fishing, fur trapping, and trading with Indian tribes. Roosevelt observed that the French left few historical records and nothing that he could characterize as “sound and permanent colonization.” He noted that, in sharp contrast to Spanish and French imperialistic exploitation, the English came to North America as permanent colonizers whose efforts advanced the course of civilization." (various dates) [Holocaust Studies still aims at fighting this type of perspective. "Never again" is the dominant phrase. If, however, cultures justify their own genocidal "activities" using a subjective emphasis on the actions of "others", what does this mean for Holocaust Studies? Holocaust Studies, and the over-concentration on a single example, might be making the problem worse rather than better. Has Washington concentrated on their horrible treatment of Native-Americans or African-Americans? No. They build Holocaust memorials instead. Similarly, Turkish nationalists use the Holocaust to downplay, minimize or even deny the Armenian tragedy.] Michael S. Bell, "The Worldview of Franklin D. Roosevelt" (PhD) (2004). http://learning.lib.vt.edu/slav/genocide.html#index http://www.adl.org/PresRele/HolNa_52/3149_52.asp |
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As for the rest of his comments, it perfectly fits my other example. Roosevelt glossed over the actions of his own ancestors (the English) and justified their actions using an argument that I could blow huge holes through. Quote:
The trouble with normal is that it always gets worse..... Dean. Quote:
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