Arabs in the Israeli Army




 
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November 3rd, 2011  
Dave Miller
 

Topic: Arabs in the Israeli Army


A little known aspect of Israel's military: non-Jews, including Arabs, serve the Jewish state.

Interesting article.

http://www.jewishideasdaily.com/cont...ies-in-the-idf
November 3rd, 2011  
senojekips
 
 
That's not unusual although it is despicable, there are turncoats and traitors in every society. People who will gladly sacrifice their morals for the promise of favourable treatment.
It is known that there were an estimated 150,0000 "half Jews" in Hitlers army too, and an undisclosed number of full Jews, who kept a very low profile, for obvious reasons.

The Cover shot on the booklet "The Ideal German Soldier" featured half Jew Werner Goldberg.


Among others were people like Field Marshal Erhard Milch.

Quote:
In one of the famous anecdotes of the time, Goering falsified Milch's birth record and when met with protests about having a Jew in the Nazi high command, Goering replied, ``I decide who is a Jew and who is an Aryan.''

Quote:
Cambridge University researcher Bryan Rigg (who studied at the Ohr Sameach Yeshiva in Jerusalem) has traced the Jewish ancestry of more than 1,200 of Hitler's soldiers, including

Two field marshals, (God knows how many Jews they killed)
Fifteen generals, (God knows how many Jews they killed)
Two full generals, (God knows how many Jews they killed)
Eight lieutenant generals, (God knows how many Jews they killed)
Five major generals, "commanding up to 100,000 troops. (God only knows how many Jews they killed) "
There is also the story and film (Europa, Europa) about Shlomo Perel who falsified his papers and served in Hitler's Army.
November 3rd, 2011  
BritinAfrica
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
That's not unusual although it is despicable, there are turncoats and traitors in every society. People who will gladly sacrifice their morals for the promise of favourable treatment. .
The SS British Free Korps comes to mind made up of troops in German POW camps, but thankfully not many went over. There are others which included Indian troops captured in Singapore who went over to the JIF's. Apparently they treated POW's worse then either the Japanese of Korean guards. One ex POW told me about Ghurka POW's who would walk past a JIF then run his finger across his throat.
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November 3rd, 2011  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BritinAfrica
The SS British Free Korps comes to mind made up of troops in German POW camps, but thankfully not many went over. There are others which included Indian troops captured in Singapore who went over to the JIF's. Apparently they treated POW's worse then either the Japanese of Korean guards. One ex POW told me about Ghurka POW's who would walk past a JIF then run his finger across his throat.
Yes, I believe that most of that has been well documented Particularly about the Free Korps which had units of many nationalities.

The Jews serving with the Nazis were less well known about for a myriad of reasons, not the least of which, was that it would have detracted from the guilt trip, that they were trying to hang on the Allies after WWII.

I might add that personally, I feel that "guilt trip" was at least partially deserved, although not all, as England and others were very busy fighting for their own survival without which all of the European Jews would have gone through the mill.
November 3rd, 2011  
BritinAfrica
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
Yes, I believe that most of that has been well documented Particularly about the Free Korps which had units of many nationalities.

The Jews serving with the Nazis were less well known about for a myriad of reasons, not the least of which, was that it would have detracted from the guilt trip, that they were trying to hang on the Allies after WWII.

I might add that personally, I feel that "guilt trip" was at least partially deserved, although not all, as England and others were very busy fighting for their own survival without which all of the European Jews would have gone through the mill.
There was piece on TV about Churchill's German Army. Millions of soldiers fought against Hitler’s Germany in WW2, but one group of men and women sacrificed everything in the battle against the Nazis. They knew they could be tortured and executed as traitors if captured but were still willing to die for their adopted country. One German was a fighter pilot in the RAF, a tank driver originally from Bonn who survived the Dachau concentration camp yet was among the first Allied troops to capture Hamburg, and the veteran who shot the infamous Lord Haw Haw in the buttocks.*

They were described as ‘suicide soldiers’ because of their German nationality and the fact that many of them were Jewish meant they would face torture and execution if they were ever captured. Yet all of them were volunteers – not conscripts like the majority of British forces. Over the decades that followed, they became so deeply assimilated into society that they became as British as the Brits.

As many as 10,000 Germans and Austrians fled Nazi persecution and joined British forces to fight against Hitler. Neighbours, colleagues and fellow soldiers all suspected they were traitors and double agents, so life in their adopted communities was hellish, and they had to fight doubly hard to prove their dedication to the war effort. But facing these challenges, these incredible volunteers played a key part in some of the most important events of the war.

Featuring moving personal testimonies, Churchill’s German Army tells the compelling stories of these extraordinary heroes for the first time.
November 3rd, 2011  
Dave Miller
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
Yes, I believe that most of that has been well documented Particularly about the Free Korps which had units of many nationalities.

The Jews serving with the Nazis were less well known about for a myriad of reasons, not the least of which, was that it would have detracted from the guilt trip, that they were trying to hang on the Allies after WWII.

I might add that personally, I feel that "guilt trip" was at least partially deserved, although not all, as England and others were very busy fighting for their own survival without which all of the European Jews would have gone through the mill.
One of the reasons it isn't well known is that not a whole lot of documentation on the matter hasn't come forward until relatively recently. There is a decent book, although a bit dry for my taste, by Mark Briggs. I can't seem to remember the title though.

Its also important to consider the fact that most of the people of Jewish descent in the German army didn't consider themselves to be Jewish and were not widely regarded by others as Jews. They fell under the legal category of Mischlinge, widely translated as "halflings", under Nazi Germany's race laws. These people were often considered lesser race on the account of having a Jewish grandparent, even though Jewish law considers such persons to be non-Jews.

Britain passively aided the Holocaust when they refused to let Jewish refugees enter Palestine after the 1939 White Paper to appease the Arabs even though they had pledged to allow Jews to move here. Many Jews were turned away at the port cities here and sent straight back to certain death in Europe. Britain wasn't the only one. America didn't allow refugees from Europe in until AFTER the war. So yes, i'd say they earned a guilt trip for their complicity in murder.
November 3rd, 2011  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Miller
Britain passively aided the Holocaust when they refused to let Jewish refugees enter Palestine after the 1939 White Paper to appease the Arabs even though they had pledged to allow Jews to move here. Many Jews were turned away at the port cities here and sent straight back to certain death in Europe. Britain wasn't the only one. America didn't allow refugees from Europe in until AFTER the war. So yes, i'd say they earned a guilt trip for their complicity in murder.
Regardless of any arrangements the Brits had made with the Jews back in England, they actually had no legal or moral right to allow Jews into Palestine as it was not their country to give away, they had already recognised the Palestinians as the legitimate owners and agreed that it was to become their homeland in 1915.

Yes,... the Brits could have legally allowed the European Jews into their own country, as could many other countries which did not. So, as far as the "guilt trip" is concerned they were no better or worse than any other country that turned back the Jews.

In view of the fact that Jewish terrorism was already a huge problem within Palestine it can be strongly argued that the Brits did actually have an obligation to prevent further trouble by preventing illegal immigration to Palestine.
November 3rd, 2011  
42RM
 
Should those born decades or even a half century later still be made to feel the burden of guilt? I think not.
November 3rd, 2011  
muscogeemike
 
Mr. Miller originally merely made the point that “Arabs” serve in the IDF. The discussion has gone on to one of moral’s, ethics, and loyalties.

I think we need a more clear definition of what is an “Arab”. At times I have heard all N. Africans and Middle easterners referred to as Arabs. Historically this has not been the case. N. Africans and Egyptians are not of the Arabian peninsula.
The peoples of the Arabian peninsula are Semitic, Jews are Semitic. Are not Jews then Arab?

As has been pointed out Jews served Hitler and Germans served against Hitler; in fact there were Americans in the SS. At least 1/3 of the people in what would become the U.S. remained loyal to the King during the Revolutionary War.

People with conflicted loyalties are present in all wars and conflicts through out history.

About 20% of Israel’s population are non-Jews; Arabs in Israel have equal voteing rights, and hold seats in the Knesset and high Gov positions. The same is not true in any Arab nation.

I believe the Jews have gone to some lengths to include the Palestinians who remained in Israel and when the state of Israel was established I don’t believe any non-Jews were forced out. The “Palestinians” that left did so of their own accord (probably believing that they would be treated as they would have treated the Jews if they had won), and it is worth noting that none of the Arab Nations would take many of them in.

The “Arabs” who serve in the IDF are not traitors nor are they despicable. They made a choice to defend their homes. Also they may, perhaps, see their standard of living in Israel is far better than those in Gaza - under the Palestinians.

BTW - I'm not Jewish, I am a native American. I have as much reason as the Palestinians to be bitter, the fact is I much prefer food I get from the Super Market over dog meat.
November 3rd, 2011  
VDKMS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
That's not unusual although it is despicable, there are turncoats and traitors in every society. People who will gladly sacrifice their morals for the promise of favourable treatment.
Wel tell that to the Japanese-American soldiers of the 442nd Regiment Combat Team and the 100th Infantry Battalion and veterans of the Military Intelligence Service who fought in WWII and were among the most decorated soldiers of the US army.

Quote:
It is known that there were an estimated 150,0000 "half Jews" in Hitlers army too, and an undisclosed number of full Jews, who kept a very low profile, for obvious reasons.
That figure comes from Bryan Mark Rigg and is misleading because allmost all cases are about "mixed Jews" as defined by the Nazi ideology, but not according to the Jewish view. Mixed jews were non-jewish people who had two Jewish grandparents (Mischling of the first degree) or one Jewish grandparent (Mischling of the second degree). Most of them maybe didn't even knew they had jewish blood in them. A Jew was someone who had at least three Jewish grandparents, and who had been enrolled with a Jewish congregation.
According to the 1939 Reich census, there were about 72,000 Mischlinge of the first degree, some 39,000 of the second degree, and probably tens of thousands more of higher degrees, which, however, were not recorded. (D. Bankier, in Holocaust and Genocide Studies, Volume 3, Number 1 (1988), pp. 1-20.)

Quote:
The Cover shot on the booklet "The Ideal German Soldier" featured half Jew Werner Goldberg.
Werner Goldberg's photograph appeared in the Sunday edition of the Berliner Tageblatt newspaper in 1939 with the caption "The Ideal German Soldier". The photograph had been sold to the newspaper by the official army photographer. It was later used on recruitment posters. Werner was a Mischling.


Quote:
Among others were people like Field Marshal Erhard Milch.
He was one of the few high ranking Jews in the Wehrmacht and enlisted in 1910 and served also as a founding Director of Deutsche Luft Hansa. He too was a Mischling. In 1947, Milch was tried as a war criminal by a United States Military Tribunal in Nuremberg and sentenced to life imprisonment at Landsberg prison.


Quote:
There is also the story and film (Europa, Europa) about Shlomo Perel who falsified his papers and served in Hitler's Army.
Perel was constantly in danger of being discovered by his German unit, and attempted on several occasions to flee back to the Soviets, each time without success. His father died of starvation in the Łódź ghetto, his mother was killed in a gassing truck and his sister was shot while on a death march but he found his brother Isaak alive. In 1948 Perel resettled in the newly independent Israel where he joined the army to fight in the 1948 Arab-Israeli War.
 


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