APFSDS (105mm and 30mm) questions...




 
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March 5th, 2004  
Redleg
 
 

Topic: APFSDS (105mm and 30mm) questions...


I have a couple of questions regarding the APFSDS tank ammo.
Is there any tankers out there who knows, or could redirect me to someone/somewhere I could find the answers?

APFSDS = Armor Piercing Fin-Stabilized Discarding Sabot.
(for the ones of you who didn't know)
And I'm also talking about the Tungsten version here, not DU.. (We don't use DU of several reasons....)

Question 1:
Anyone here who has used the APFSDS (105mm) in woodland terrain?
I just wonder how vegetation affects the SABOT?
How thick can trees/bushes be without affecting the projectile?
I know it will be affected in some way, and the distance from the obstacle to the target is also important..
The SABOT (DU) was shot through sand dunes in Desert Storm, at targets 10-30m behind the dune, and it still knocked out the target.
But what I wonder about is if it's possible to hide behind trees/bushes (Norwegian terrain), and shoot through them at targets 1-2000 meters away, with a good chance of hitting?

Question 2:
How well do you hear impacts of 30mm (or below) projectiles on main battle tanks (in a combat situation)?
I'm talking about harmless impacts here...
We use 30mm APFSDS ammo on our CV90's, would you hear every single (harmless) impact from that one on a MBT??

Any answer, or source to where I could find some answers are appreciated.
Please PM me if you don't want to post here.

These are job related questions, I have some information about this already, but I want some personal opinions on this as well.

Thanks.
March 5th, 2004  
dragon_master_gunner
 
I can only answer your question #1, and only from a Master Gunner's perspective.

APFSDS has such a high muzzle velocity that shooting through foilage isn't a huge concern. Even if you punched through an oak tree, there would still be enough kinetic energy remaining to do significant damage to a target. Now, this is DU I'm talking about. Tungsten should have the same properties.

If you can shoot 105mm through a berm, a few trees and leaves shouldn't matter much, as long as you still shoot "center of visible mass".
March 5th, 2004  
Redleg
 
 
It's not the kinetic energy that worries me, the SABOT is one mean SOB when it comes to muzzel velocity..
An obstacle near the target (0-40m) shouldn't be any problem at all, as the sand dunes example says.
But if the obstacle is too close to you, is it possible that the SABOT can get out of course and miss it's target?
I know that high velocity small arms bullets have that problem.
As soon as it hits an obstacle it can change it's course to (almost) any direction..

The SABOT doesn't spin, so it should not get much out of course, but with a target range of 2000+ meters...????
Any ideas?
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March 5th, 2004  
Animal Mother
 
I would recommend trying to ask here as well:

http://www.tank-net.org - Lots of ex and inservice tankers around, from alot of different nations. Could be worth a shot?
March 6th, 2004  
Redleg
 
 
Thanks, I'll try there.
March 6th, 2004  
dragon_master_gunner
 
Actually, SABOT spins, depending on whether or not you're firing smooth or rifled bore. And at VERy close range, like you are talking about, it would have no effect.
March 6th, 2004  
Animal Mother
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dragon_master_gunner
Actually, SABOT spins, depending on whether or not you're firing smooth or rifled bore. And at VERy close range, like you are talking about, it would have no effect.
Not really, as all modern APFSDS rounds are unspun, rifled guns use driving bands to prevent spin. Older APDS where spun though.
March 6th, 2004  
Redleg
 
 
I ment to say that the fin stabilized SABOT doesn't spin (much).....

Obstacles at close range to the target shouldn't be any problem, but I'm just wondering if you hit an obstacle near you when you fire, could the SABOT get a bit out of course?
How thick/big could a (wooden) obstacle be before the projectile (eventually) would get out of course??

1/10 degree (about 2 mils) wrong at a target 2km away could mean that you'll miss it with 2-4 meters...

I'm just curious about this because I wonder how effective a SABOT would be in Norwegian terrain... (lots of trees...)

And the second question (in the first post) is for a combat simulation system we have in my camp.
I just wondered if you would hear every single (harmless) hit on a MBT (from 30mm and below)...
March 6th, 2004  
diplomatic_means
 
Redleg you have the weapons and the ammo so why don't you experiment and tell us what happens?
March 6th, 2004  
Redleg
 
 
I wish I could...