Aircraft question

R

rock45

Active member
I was checking around on this site:
http://www.flightglobal.com/airspac...ruly-iconic-military-aircraft-7061.aspx#10226

And came across this thread the F4U Corsiar was always my favorite but the P-51D was high on my list as well #4. I always wanted know what would happen if the two went at it?

The two would pass each other 10,000 feet flying 300 knots count to ten slowly and then turn and fight. I assume since the P-51D is a little smaller that it might be able to turn faster and get in the first shots but I may be wrong.

My top five
F4U (had a 13 foot prop and 2000 ponies under the hood)
P-47
F190 (needed a more powerful engine and it could have been great)
P-51D
P-38 (another aircraft I always wonder how it was as a pure dog fighter)

If anybody can fill in any blanks, thanks








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The FW 190 was given the name “Butcher Bird”. The Spitfire Mk9 (Mk16 with the Packard Merlin) was more then a match and gave many FW190 pilots a nasty surprise.

The Hawker Hurricane was one the of the most underated fighters of Fighter Command, although not as fast and nimble as the Spit she gave a good account of herself by shooting down more aircraft then the Spitfire during the Battle of Britain. The airframe was so tough, she could take far more punishment then the Spitfire, easier to repair and during the war in North Africa there was a Tank Buster version with a 40mm gun under each wing. Very good aeroplane.


As a matter of interest, Supermarine has re-emerged in Australia and are building smaller scale (although still quite a large aeroplane) versions of the Spitfire in kit form called the Mark 26. From pilots reports I have read she's a dream to fly. Boy, how I wish I could afford to buy and build one.


http://www.supermarineaircraft.com/About.htm
 
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Butcher Bird

Hi BritinAfrica
When you say "Butcher Bird" do you mean it was easy to butcher it? I'm not a huge German aviation fan but feel the Germans failed to upgrade both there main fighters with most powerful engines, a flaw that hurt them I think.

Thanks for the link pretty interesting stuff.

Do you know anything about F4U Corsiar's as dog fighters do you think it would have been a match for P-51D? I guess pilot skill would decide such things. I wonder if any US Navy pilots might have trained against some US Marine pilots F4U vs. Hellcat?

I always enjoy reading about dissimilar combat or training. Other match up I'm hunting for are:
Mirage 2000-5 vs F-15C, not common always F-16 vs Mirage
Flankers vs. Fulcrum - can't find anything on this Russian pilots must train against each other right? Maybe a Indian route is one I should be looking for?
US Navy or US Marine going into other countries and training with their AF, for example US Navy went to Peru a few years back but still can't find anything about it. Mirage 2000-P & Mig-29S vs F/A-18 C/D
A list of aircraft the Rafale went up against?
A list of aircraft the Typhoon up against, too bad this fine aircraft didn't get produce sooner.

In the Battle of Britain maybe modern combat is fought differently but why didn't Britain go after Germany's air fields and aircraft? I always felt even our bombers should have targeted Germany's air assets much early on.
 
The reason that the Hurricanes shot down more German planes than the Spitfire was that there was about three times as many of them. Also as the Spitfire could more than hold their own against all the German fighters during the Battle Of Britain they got the task of dealing with the German fighters that were escorting the bombers. The Hurricanes on the other hand went in and tackled the German bombers which were slower and bigger and better targets.
The Hurricanes design did not allow for much further development hence after the BoB it was turned over to a ground attack aircraft which again it really excelled.
 
rock45 said:
Hi BritinAfrica
When you say "Butcher Bird" do you mean it was easy to butcher it? I'm not a huge German aviation fan but feel the Germans failed to upgrade both there main fighters with most powerful engines, a flaw that hurt them I think..
Click to expand...

Quite the reverse, the FW 190 butchered the Spitfire Mk5, it wasnt until the Mk 9 came about which was basically a Mk5 with a more powerful engine, that things began to even up


rock45 said:
Do you know anything about F4U Corsiar's as dog fighters do you think it would have been a match for P-51D? I guess pilot skill would decide such things. I wonder if any US Navy pilots might have trained against some US Marine pilots F4U vs. Hellcat? .
Click to expand...

I apologise, but I'm afraid I dont know a great deal about US aeroplanes, from what I hear the Corsair, P47 and P51 Mustang were quite able dog fighters and could take quite a lot of punishment as well as give it out. But as far going against one another, I really wouldnt know which would come out on top.


rock45 said:
I always enjoy reading about dissimilar combat or training. Other match up I'm hunting for are:
Mirage 2000-5 vs F-15C, not common always F-16 vs Mirage
Flankers vs. Fulcrum - can't find anything on this Russian pilots must train against each other right? Maybe a Indian route is one I should be looking for?.
Click to expand...


One interesting facet, the Harrier gave a very good account of itself against the Argentine Mirage during the Falklands War, a much faster aircraft. I have also heard about Arab (Jordanian?) Hawker Hunters getting into a dog fight with Israeli Mirages. Neither side could get on the tail of the other, until a Hunter broke away and headed for home, was then bounced by a Mirage and shot down. There were plans to build a supersonic version of the Harrier, but for some reason the idea was scrapped.


rock45 said:
US Navy or US Marine going into other countries and training with their AF, for example US Navy went to Peru a few years back but still can't find anything about it. Mirage 2000-P & Mig-29S vs F/A-18 C/D
A list of aircraft the Rafale went up against?
A list of aircraft the Typhoon up against, too bad this fine aircraft didn't get produce sooner. .
Click to expand...


Personally I am unsure as to the capabilities of the new Typhon, its delta wing layout isnt considered by many experts (I'm not an expert by any means) as the best design for dog fighting. Until the aeroplane gives an account of itself in a fight its a question waiting to be answered.

rock45 said:
In the Battle of Britain maybe modern combat is fought differently but why didn't Britain go after Germany's air fields and aircraft? I always felt even our bombers should have targeted Germany's air assets much early on.
Click to expand...






The Battle of Britain was brutal, many young pilots died on their first sortie. The battle was really a battle for survival for the British, a battle of defence. As to why the RAF never attacked Luftwaffe assets is a question that I cannot answer, no doubt others can. Maybe it was raised, maybe there wasn't enough available aircrews and aircraft. There were a number of aircraft which did carry out sorties over Europe, but as far as I am aware, nothing was really organised.
Although it must be said, Hugh Dowding and Keith Parks (11 group) fought the battle brilliantly.



Yes there were a lot more Hurricanes built then Spitfires, the Hurricane was a far more simple aircraft to manufacture. Alex Henshaw whom I consider to be one of the hero's at Supermarine said I think unfairly, “The Hurricane couldn't have won the Battle of Britain on its own, while the Spitfire could.” Yes I agree, IF there were enough Spitfires, which there wasn't. As a matter of interest Alex Henshaw was the only known pilot with co-pilot Peter Ayerst, to ever barrel roll a Lancaster bomber, a task considered impossible by many.
 
The reason they did not attack the Luftwaffe was that they did not have the planes or man power to do it. If a pilot was shot down at this time in France he would have been lost for the rest of the war. If he was shot down over England he was given another plane and sent back into the fight. The factories were producing fighters quicker than we where losing them, the big problems was getting hold of pilots to fly them.
Raids started across the channel in early 1941 as soon as more pilots became available
 
Luftwaffe

Hi LeEnfield
I always watch on the old WW-II shows that late in the war as allied fighters were returning they would shoot up anything that moved on the way back. It seemed to me that since Germany must have kept a portion of their fighters in Germany for anti-bomber duties that going after other targets had be easier?

With of less fighter and less nasty 88mm anti-aircraft guns to deal with I would have went after the German army and weaken them.

Having shorter bases to which to operate from I would have made Germany pay dearly for anything on the coast and 100 miles inland.

The 109 didn't have a lot of range I assume most of the German bases or air fields were known in France. Pull half the bombers of the city runs and knockout what was close by first.

I can't think of the German unit moved in quickly after D-day to try close up the attack but units like that and others all mid ranges targets compared to traveling to Germany to bomb cities should have been hit. I guess what I'm saying badly is why weren't the outer layers hit?
 
The RAF did set fighter wings that would sweep over sections of France and beat up airfields. the Germans in turn had some very heavy flak units of all calibres to take on the RAF when performing this role. the RAF did pay a very heavy price in dong this, but it took the fight to the enemy and helped push him on to the defencive
 
Mosquito Squadrons did carry out quite varied attacks on occupied Europe including the attack on the Gestapo HQ in Copenhagen, Amiens Prison, and two attacks on Berlin to interrupt Goring and Joseph Goebbels speeches. It was said that Mosquito Squadrons had a personal vendetta against the Gestapo.

The Mosquito was an amazing aeroplane, many versions were built including bombers, fighter bombers and fighters. As a bomber, later versions could carry a 4000 pound bomb load, with a speed of 415 mph (Mk16), was faster then many fighters.
 
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Mosquito

Thanks guys the Mosquito is one of my WW-II favorites as well. To be honest I don't know a lot of what RAF did between 1942 and 1944. The World at War shows and shows like them covered bombers more and then at the end showed fighters on their way back from bomber escorts blowing up trains and more. I am sure there is much more to learn about this topic. Since I follow more modern aviation I have to remind myself it was a different time. Picking up targets and gathering target information isn't the same as today. A lot more fly by the seat of your pants then today.
 
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