Active Protection Systems




 
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June 4th, 2015  
I3BrigPvSk
 
 

Topic: Active Protection Systems


I have been thinking about these Active Protection Systems fitted on vehicles, the Russians have their Arena and the Israelis Trophy, I have watched videos where they are testing them and it seems they are working, but do they? The sabot projectile moves too fast for any active protection system, these systems are supposed to protect the vehicle from missiles and portable anti-tank weapons.

When Israel moved against Hizbollah in 2006, their Merkava tanks were issued a protection system and due to the losses of vehicles and tanks, the protection system did not do what it was supposed to do. The Trophy system has been developed since 2006 so it might works today. However, I am somewhat skeptical to systems like these, If I were a crew of a vehicle issued with a protection system, I would not feel safer. So the more technical people here, what do think/knew about these systems? If missiles are other anti tank weapons became faster, will the system be obsolete?

There must be a delay between the detection of an incoming missile/heat round and firing the countermeasure, and here is why I don't trust these systems
June 5th, 2015  
MontyB
 
 
As they say for every system that is built someone will build one to defeat it and APS's are no different.

I imagine the greatest weakness in an APS is probably height as from what I have seen they are built for protection from side attacks (all four sides) but not the top.
I would also imagine proximity has a huge effect as well as the less time you give it to react the less effective it should be and given the number of battles being fought in urban environments these days these should be major factors.
June 5th, 2015  
I3BrigPvSk
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
As they say for every system that is built someone will build one to defeat it and APS's are no different.

I imagine the greatest weakness in an APS is probably height as from what I have seen they are built for protection from side attacks (all four sides) but not the top.
I would also imagine proximity has a huge effect as well as the less time you give it to react the less effective it should be and given the number of battles being fought in urban environments these days these should be major factors.
I haven't read anything about how far from the vehicle the "protection shield" reaches, and when you are saying that about leaving the top of the vehicle open. All tests I have seen are defending the sides. However, the Israelis are claiming their system protects the top too, but saying one thing and showing it are two different things.
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June 6th, 2015  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by I3BrigPvSk
I haven't read anything about how far from the vehicle the "protection shield" reaches, and when you are saying that about leaving the top of the vehicle open. All tests I have seen are defending the sides. However, the Israelis are claiming their system protects the top too, but saying one thing and showing it are two different things.
I too have doubts about these systems as every demonstration I have seen shows it working flawlessly yet most of the demonstrations show the incoming round being fired from the optimal distance for the system on an open terrain with no background noise to interfere with the tracking system and low and behold it works every time but I suspect that is now how these vehicles will encounter this scenario often.

But I also have doubts about the effectiveness of anti-missile systems because it seems to me that the counter to that is to lower the trajectory of the missile and reduce the defense batteries time to react.
June 7th, 2015  
JOC
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by I3BrigPvSk
I have been thinking about these Active Protection Systems fitted on vehicles, the Russians have their Arena and the Israelis Trophy, I have watched videos where they are testing them and it seems they are working, but do they? The sabot projectile moves too fast for any active protection system, these systems are supposed to protect the vehicle from missiles and portable anti-tank weapons.

When Israel moved against Hizbollah in 2006, their Merkava tanks were issued a protection system and due to the losses of vehicles and tanks, the protection system did not do what it was supposed to do. The Trophy system has been developed since 2006 so it might works today. However, I am somewhat skeptical to systems like these, If I were a crew of a vehicle issued with a protection system, I would not feel safer. So the more technical people here, what do think/knew about these systems? If missiles are other anti tank weapons became faster, will the system be obsolete?

There must be a delay between the detection of an incoming missile/heat round and firing the countermeasure, and here is why I don't trust these systems
Although not intimately familiar with these forms of electronic counter measure systems personally. Detection and reaction to close range treats would seem to be a major issue. Delay for an incoming rocket fired-shell at some distance is more easily overcome. This is due to the fact that the signals must be transmitted by the vehicle and then received. This happens extremely rapidly as a radar signal moves at the speed of light. The same is true for any measured incoming signal be it light or heat. Some time must be accounted for in the processing of the signal. Also todays systems can effectively deal with most background noise and clutter produced by the surrounding terrain with noise and clutter reduction algorithms. This gives the advantage to the incoming projectile that is fired from a very close distance. So an enemy solder with an a held rocket launcher of sorts (like the LAW) firing from 50 or a 100 yards "or so" would be very difficulty to detect in time by such a system. These are just the kind of treats that one might encounter from groups such as ISIS, the Taliban, etc. vs. complex longer range rocketry and artillery.
June 9th, 2015  
s_weichbrodt
 
 
As is often the case, the precise technical details are classified. However, this video may give you a better insight into how the Israeli Trophy and other APS systems work.

April 4th, 2017  
alx0126
 
Russians claim their Arena to defend from the projectiles approaching within 70-700 m/s range. Israeli Trophy has, probably, similar fitures. So, it can protect a vehicle from fellachs with RPGs, guided missiles and many other unwanted threats. That's great, and remores! many problems for the crue.
Contemporary active protection systems cannot protect from kinetic penetrators. That's a pitty.
 


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