The Ace of Aces - Page 4




 
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October 4th, 2014  
George
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BritinAfrica
What REALLY annoys me, Stalin accused Churchill more or less of cowardice in the delay in opening a second front when Britain was not ready. Lets not forget Stalin sent Hitler a telegram congratulating him after the British were evacuated at Dunkirk, as well as sending Hitler raw material for his war machine. Its a pity Churchill didn't remind him of the fact.
Plus the Luftwaffe was re-established and trained in secret in the Soviet Union. A Soviet Icebreaker provided the means for a KM Raider to sail to the Pacific by way of the northern coast of the Soviet Union.

"George I do believe a lot of the Japanese ships carrying the oil were sunk by US subs "

Yes, but I'm thinking they didn't have fuel supply problems until well into '45. The B-29s started operations in India/China in April '44, had they been hitting the oil fields this may have happened much sooner.
October 5th, 2014  
JOC
 
 

Topic: Stalin


Stalin was scared of Hitler. He continued to ship war materials to Germany oil, iron, manganese, etc. right up until Barbarossa. It was no secret that Hitler hated the Communist and the Slavs. Stalin ignored these facts and the German buildup.

The British leaked information on the German buildup to the Soviets for months before Hitler launched Barbarossa. Much of this came from Bletchley crytptologists who concluded what the Germans were preparing for the USSR and informed Prime minister Churchill. The British forwarded information indirectly through agents in Switzerland and Eastern Europe Both the British and Americans warned Stalin. Churchill also sent a personal telegram to Stalin. Stalin chose to ignore these warning.
October 7th, 2014  
lljadw
 
Because these informations were unreliable and irrelevant .Till june 1941,there were no indications of a German attack .Besides,as the Red Army was in a deplorable situation,there was nothing that Stalin could do . Nothing .
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October 7th, 2014  
JOC
 
 
Stalin failed to take advantage of the intelligence data concerning Barbarossa. This included intelligence reports from Soviet agents in Western Europe, Eastern Europe, and Japan. Reports from foreign sources in Berlin, London, Helsinki and Warsaw. Reports from Soviet border troops that detailed the German military buildup along the Soviet western border. All of this supports the fact that Stalin willfully ignored information that did not match his preconceived notions.
By putting the Red Army particularly the Red Army stationed along the frontier on a high alert he could of down scaled some of the initial disasters. By not doing so they were sitting ducks to the initial German attack.
October 7th, 2014  
lljadw
 
This is not correct

1)The informations Stalin received were unreliable (and those from Sorge were the worst):they were on the level of :if on 9/1 2001 someone had told that a terrorist action against the US was nearing,giving no proofs .

2)Reality is the following :
Build-up of the Ostheer
December 1940 : 35 divisions (9 mobile) :thus no danger

1 may 1941:60 divisions : no danger

5 june : 93 divisions (7 mobile):no danger

Most of the mobile divisions arrived a week before the attack,and than it was to late to do anything


3) The Russian Army :was not good at all :tank divisions without tanks,without ammunition,without fuel,without trained tank crews,but with much to much tanks.

The Soviet Army was as a Potemkin village (not unusual in Russia/the SU)


A good source is : RKKA capability in 1941 on the Armchair General site (41 pages,611 posts)
October 7th, 2014  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BritinAfrica
If the Air Ministry had listened to and backed Frank Whittle the Gloster E.28/39 could have been developed further and fought the Battle of Britain.
True but had the British rolled out the jet in the Battle of Britain the Germans would have simply thrown their efforts into the He-178 development which had flown in 1939.

The whole of WW2 was about development and counter development, most of the Spitfires development could be attributed to the Germans countering the current Spitfire variant.

No one side had a massive technological advantage over the other at best maybe a 6 month lead could be hoped for but I suspect that in reality 6 weeks was closer to the real difference.
October 7th, 2014  
JOC
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lljadw
This is not correct

1)The informations Stalin received were unreliable (and those from Sorge were the worst):they were on the level of :if on 9/1 2001 someone had told that a terrorist action against the US was nearing,giving no proofs .

2)Reality is the following :
Build-up of the Ostheer
December 1940 : 35 divisions (9 mobile) :thus no danger

1 may 1941:60 divisions : no danger

5 june : 93 divisions (7 mobile):no danger

Most of the mobile divisions arrived a week before the attack,and than it was to late to do anything


3) The Russian Army :was not good at all :tank divisions without tanks,without ammunition,without fuel,without trained tank crews,but with much to much tanks.

The Soviet Army was as a Potemkin village (not unusual in Russia/the SU)


A good source is : RKKA capability in 1941 on the Armchair General site (41 pages,611 posts)
As explained Stalin received plenty of data concerning the oncoming onslaught. Which by the why did not make their way up t the line in less than a week before the start of the invasion.The British cryptologists at Bletchley used enigma to determine the treat and warn him months in advance. It took longer than a week to bring up the men, hardware, supplies and support for a 3 million man invasion.

The Soviets had a 6 million man army with > 6 thousand tanks, x2 the that of the Germans. They like the France before them didn't know to effectively use them. There machines ran they were just blown up by the Germans who used superior tactics or in the case of the Red Army Air Force was caught on the ground due to unpreparedness.
October 8th, 2014  
BritinAfrica
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
True but had the British rolled out the jet in the Battle of Britain the Germans would have simply thrown their efforts into the He-178 development which had flown in 1939.
True, but the jet could have done far more damage to the German bomber fleet and the Luftwaffe as a whole.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
The whole of WW2 was about development and counter development, most of the Spitfires development could be attributed to the Germans countering the current Spitfire variant.

No one side had a massive technological advantage over the other at best maybe a 6 month lead could be hoped for but I suspect that in reality 6 weeks was closer to the real difference.
I agree with that, except Germany was well ahead with U Boat development with its type 21. Thankfully only two were made operational but came too late in the war.
October 8th, 2014  
lljadw
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOC
As explained Stalin received plenty of data concerning the oncoming onslaught. Which by the why did not make their way up t the line in less than a week before the start of the invasion.The British cryptologists at Bletchley used enigma to determine the treat and warn him months in advance. It took longer than a week to bring up the men, hardware, supplies and support for a 3 million man invasion.

The Soviets had a 6 million man army with > 6 thousand tanks, x2 the that of the Germans. They like the France before them didn't know to effectively use them. There machines ran they were just blown up by the Germans who used superior tactics or in the case of the Red Army Air Force was caught on the ground due to unpreparedness.
We disagree : without the mobile divisions, Barbarossa was impossible ,and the mobile divisions were going east only in Germany .

The Soviet Air Force was caught on the ground due to unpreparedness,but if it had more informations,it still would be unprepared,because of structural problems .
October 9th, 2014  
JOC
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BritinAfrica
True, but the jet could have done far more damage to the German bomber fleet and the Luftwaffe as a whole.




I agree with that, except Germany was well ahead with U Boat development with its type 21. Thankfully only two were made operational but came too late in the war.


1. Henschel’s HS 293 Radio-controlled Glide Bomb was the most effective guided weapon of the war a bomb that destroyed a number of destroyers and trading ships. 1st cruise missile.

2. The Horten Ho 229 described by many as “the world’s first stealth bomber”, was the first pure flying wing plane to be powered by a jet engine. Like many of Germanys advanced weapons it came out to late to make an impact in the war.

3. The Sturmgewehr 44 or StG 44 is considered by many to be the world’s first assault rifle. The StG 44’s design was so successful that modern assault rifles such as the infamous AK-47 and M16 designs are derived from it. It arrived too late in the war to make much of an impact on the battlefields of war-torn Europe. By war’s end an Infrared vision version was available.

4. As for the ME-262 despite its late start and engine burn issue. It still claimed a minimum of 542 Allied kills for a little over 100 ME-262 downed. Many of these kills were P-51's and P-47's. They remained in service for Czechoslovakia until 1951 It was still the the world's first operational jet-powered fighter aircraft.

5. The buzzsaw was the best machine gun of the war firing at x2 the rate of any other machine gun in action and with greater accuracy.

Germany had many advanced concepts but often shortsighted leadership. It has been said that Hitler had a WW1 mentality when it came to utilizing new technology until it was too late. These are just some other end of war examples (other than the electric type 21 U-submarine with x2 the speed mentioned) that could have helped Germany had they been developed earlier.

It was a war of technology with the allies taking the lead in radar, the Atomic bomb, P-51, Hobart’s funnies.

Unfortunately for those lousy Nazi's, Germany’s technology later proved of more benefit to the victors than it did to Germany.
 


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