17 september 1939 - Page 3




 
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May 10th, 2010  
Jeff Simmons
 

Topic: Things to be expected


With the creation of the "Polish corridor" to the sea and the separation of East Prussia from the rest of the German nation, it should have been assumed that at some point, someone in Germany would have wanted to change that bit of political geography, with Poland being the target.

Moreover, the Polish didn't have the means to build armor, planes, etc. to match the German and Russian war machines. They were sandwiched between two powers teeming to gain territory in the chess game of the late 1930s, and they didn't care what was in the way. And there certainly is no way possible that Poland could have defended two fronts at once, either. The fact that these two powers cut a deal probably limited the destruction that would have come to Poland if just one of these powers had taken it in its entirety.

I also must point out that I am of the school that Stalin cut this deal with Hitler to buy territory that would serve as a buffer between the Germans and Moscow. It may have been his smartest maneuver of the entire war.
May 13th, 2010  
Shmack
 
 
Stalin offered the Poles to put Soviet army on Polish-German border just prior to German invasion on September, 1st. I can understand the Poles who refused to allow that, but what were they expecting in that case? I guess they were going to destroy the German armies, it's just the Russians that have spoiled everything. So, what's so shameful here..?
May 13th, 2010  
Jeff Simmons
 

Topic: Shameful...?


I don't know if any single individual was "shameful" when it came to the division of Poland. I would imagine that much of the blame lies with Hitler, but this lies outside my area of expertise (WWI). I would greatly appreciate it if someone might take a few minutes to explain to me exactly what agreement was made between Hitler and Stalin and how they carried it out (I know the German action.) What, precisely, was Stalin's role in this, and did he gain more than just buffer space between his own troops and the Nazis?

BTW, what is a "pom" or "Pommy?" I've come across that in a few places (usually with a negative connotation). Let me know on this, too.
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May 13th, 2010  
Shmack
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Simmons
I don't know if any single individual was "shameful" when it came to the division of Poland. I would imagine that much of the blame lies with Hitler, but this lies outside my area of expertise (WWI). I would greatly appreciate it if someone might take a few minutes to explain to me exactly what agreement was made between Hitler and Stalin and how they carried it out (I know the German action.) What, precisely, was Stalin's role in this, and did he gain more than just buffer space between his own troops and the Nazis?
Well, that's quite simple actually: when it became obvious that Germans are preparing for a grand war and nothing can stop them, european countries began to search for any allies they could find. Poland had a choise between France/Britain and Russia. They have chosen France and Britain. Stalin was quite sure that they won't do a thing to protect Poland, and that in case of war he would find German army just a hundred miles away from Kiev. Nobody wanted to become allies with Stalin, that's why a week prior to WWII beginning Stalin decided to be allies with Hitler. They agreed to divide Poland by the so called Сurzon line (to the west of it the majority of population was Polish, to the east - Russians, Belorussians and Ukrainians). So, Russia regained control over the territories lost in WWI and pushed the future front line westward away from Moscow, Germany destroyed Poland and Russia didn't care about Germans' expansion until 1941.
May 13th, 2010  
lljadw
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shmack
Well, that's quite simple actually: when it became obvious that Germans are preparing for a grand war and nothing can stop them, european countries began to search for any allies they could find. Poland had a choise between France/Britain and Russia. They have chosen France and Britain. Stalin was quite sure that they won't do a thing to protect Poland, and that in case of war he would find German army just a hundred miles away from Kiev. Nobody wanted to become allies with Stalin, that's why a week prior to WWII beginning Stalin decided to be allies with Hitler. They agreed to divide Poland by the so called Сurzon line (to the west of it the majority of population was Polish, to the east - Russians, Belorussians and Ukrainians). So, Russia regained control over the territories lost in WWI and pushed the future front line westward away from Moscow, Germany destroyed Poland and Russia didn't care about Germans' expansion until 1941.
About Stalin :he made the logical choice :2 of his fiercest ennemies were fighting each other,and ,by doing nothing,he would gain a lot .Why would Stalin intervene in a capitalist civil war? (for a true marxist,there was no difference between capitalism and fascism).
I do not believe that he intervened to gain a bufferzone against Hitler:Stalin did not know what Britain and France would do,he did not know that Hitler would win in 1940 (he could not forecast the future ).
Btw:the Germans were NOT preparing for a grand war,but for a small one ,unless you consider a war against Poland as a big one .
May 13th, 2010  
Shmack
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lljadw
About Stalin :he made the logical choice :2 of his fiercest ennemies were fighting each other,and ,by doing nothing,he would gain a lot .Why would Stalin intervene in a capitalist civil war? (for a true marxist,there was no difference between capitalism and fascism).
I do not believe that he intervened to gain a bufferzone against Hitler:Stalin did not know what Britain and France would do,he did not know that Hitler would win in 1940 (he could not forecast the future ).
Btw:the Germans were NOT preparing for a grand war,but for a small one ,unless you consider a war against Poland as a big one .
Germans were prepaing for a war against Poland by total militarizing of economy and gathering 3 million army? Yeah, right...

And what do you mean by 'he did not know that Hitler would win in 1940'? It was absolutely clear than no power in Europe could withstand German agression, he was not sure even about the Soviet Army, what doubts can there be about France?
May 13th, 2010  
Jeff Simmons
 

Topic: "grand war"


There is little doubt in my mind that Hitler did, in fact, prepare for a "grand war"...If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and looks like a duck, then it's probably a duck.

And regardless of the deal made to split Poland, I must point out that Hitler (a fascist) and Stalin (a communist) were, in political terms, polar opposites and never trusted each other, even before the outbreak of war.
May 13th, 2010  
LeEnfield
 
 
I wonder what made Britain go to war with Germany
May 14th, 2010  
Jeff Simmons
 

Topic: Here's a guess


That is a pretty wide-open question, LeEnfield, but I would imagine that it had something to do with U-boats cutting supply lines between GB and Europe and vice versa. And the British hatred of Germany built with the blitz in 1940 as well. But most of all, I can't see a very stubborn Churchill siting idly by while the rest of Europe came under Nazi control. It is simply something he would not stand for, even if it came down to one last British soldier with a club fighting the last German armed with a pocket knife. As Pink Floyd said on "Dark Side Of the Moon," "...hanging on in quiet desperation is the English way."
May 14th, 2010  
lljadw
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shmack
Germans were prepaing for a war against Poland by total militarizing of economy and gathering 3 million army? Yeah, right...

And what do you mean by 'he did not know that Hitler would win in 1940'? It was absolutely clear than no power in Europe could withstand German agression, he was not sure even about the Soviet Army, what doubts can there be about France?
Nope
1)The Germans attacked Poland with 1.5 million men
2)If the war with Poland was a grand war,how would you qualify the war with the West ? A mega-super-grand war ?
3)"it was absolutely clear that no power in Europoe could stand German agression " :this is totally ridiculous.
The French army was considered by every one as the best in the world.
The German army was numerically inferior to the West in may 1940;they had less:
tanks
aircraft
artillery
men
divisions
Qualitatively,their aircraft,tanks,artillery,men and divisions were not better than the Allied ones .
Last point:in 1939,the Wehrmacht was no danger for the SU.