17 september 1939 - Page 2




 
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January 21st, 2006  
boris116
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien435
Personally? I think it was a good thing. Stalin managed to get an extra couple hundred miles between Moscow and the front, which probably prevented the Wermacht from taking the city and kept Russia in the war, if Stalin doesn't attack Poland it is quite possible that Russia falls and the Allies don't win the war for several years, if at all.

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I don't think that Stalin has profited a lot from these "extra couple hunderd miles" in 1941. Unfortunately for him and the Red Army all fortifications along the old border have been decomissioned and the new ones have not built yet. So the Germans have conquered these former Polish territories within a week.
However, it has to be mentioned that Stalin in Sept. 1939 has been almost fully allied with Hitler(without formally joining the Anti-Comintern Pact, of course - it would be so ironic )
The German U-boats were stationed in Polyarny, the German surface raiders have been escorted by the Soviet icebreakers via Arctic Seaway to the Far East to prey on British maritime traffic on the Pacific. The Soviet Union was suplying Germany with food, ore and other strategic materials right before being invaded by their former friend.

Regarding the Soviet-Polish relations before the war, it is important to remember that Poland has defeated the Soviets in 1920(The Warsaw Miracle) and Stalin personally has been the one defeated. These realtions were very bad and the Soviets were very eager to avenge themselves.

I believe, it was some probability at that time that Nazi Germany and Red Russia could have fight on the same side, if:
1. Great Britain could manage to occupy Norway before the Germans did and deny Swedish ore to the Germans
2. British and French troops came to help the Finns against the Red Army and bomb Baku, as it has been planned
January 21st, 2006  
Damien435
 
 
Except the only people the Nazi's hated with as much passion as the Jews were Communists. The only people the Russians hated as much as the Jews were Germans. Both nations had fought each other in the Great War, and they never were close to "friendship". Stalin and Hitler held too much hatred for one another and each other's political systems to ever get along for much longer than they did. If Hitler doesn't attack Stalin, Stalin attacks Hitler while his armies are off in England, then Stalin controls Europe, not Hitler, and the Cold War gets off to a white hot start pretty damn quick.
January 22nd, 2006  
boris116
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien435
Except the only people the Nazi's hated with as much passion as the Jews were Communists. The only people the Russians hated as much as the Jews were Germans. Both nations had fought each other in the Great War, and they never were close to "friendship". Stalin and Hitler held too much hatred for one another and each other's political systems to ever get along for much longer than they did. If Hitler doesn't attack Stalin, Stalin attacks Hitler while his armies are off in England, then Stalin controls Europe, not Hitler, and the Cold War gets off to a white hot start pretty damn quick.
You are right in one major issue - these two tirans couldn't share the same Earth for a long time. But on everything else we can argue

1. The difference between the Nazi and Commie is not as big as you think.
Racial superiority vs. Class superiority, that's all. This is theory
In their practical application both regimes were so similar. From mass propaganda and youth's indocrination from their suppression of any dissent to the foreign aggression - they were like brothers!
Do you know that Gestapo and NKVD used to have joint seminars to share their methods and findings, that more German communists of high rank have been destroyed in Gulag than by Gestapo? They were much better pair than the trio FDR-Churchill-Stalin, don't you think?
2. The Germans and the Russians didn't hate each other before the WWII! The Russian Csars after, I believe, 1765, were German by origin, including Ekatherine the Great. Nicolas II and the Kaser Wilhelm II were cousins. Ethnic Germans were serving in the highest state and military posts of the Russian Empire including prime-minister's. When the Germans were occupying some russian territory in the WWI, they behaved, more or less.
So, when they advanced again in 1941, many people, including the Jews(!!) didn't want to flee, saying:"The Germans are civilized people, why should we fear them?"
3. Are you aware of the role the Soviets played in the restoration of the German War Machine in the 20-ies? Of the visits made by the future Wermaxt generals(including Guderian) to The Red Army training centers?
4. I have started to climb mountains in the USSR more than 30 years ago. At that time, we still had some old instructors who fought in the war in the Caucasus mountains. They told us - EVERY officer and many men of the German alpine division had an opportunity to visit these mountains before the war! There were climbing there with their Russian friends. So, when they came back in 1942, the fights were often personal - the enemies were often known by their first names!

Of course, the brutality of the Nazi occupation and the bitter fighting has changed all that. But it wasn't always the case...
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January 22nd, 2006  
Damien435
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by boris116
You are right in one major issue - these two tirans couldn't share the same Earth for a long time. But on everything else we can argue

1. The difference between the Nazi and Commie is not as big as you think.
Racial superiority vs. Class superiority, that's all. This is theory
In their practical application both regimes were so similar. From mass propaganda and youth's indocrination from their suppression of any dissent to the foreign aggression - they were like brothers!
And yet despite this they still hated eachother dearly and the Communists and Nazi's were sworn enemies from the world go.


Quote:
Do you know that Gestapo and NKVD used to have joint seminars to share their methods and findings, that more German communists of high rank have been destroyed in Gulag than by Gestapo? They were much better pair than the trio FDR-Churchill-Stalin, don't you think?
They might have been a better pair than that trio, but latter three were world leaders, not the scum of the earth sharing techniques for the most painful methods to slowly kill one another. Stalin believed that Churchill and Roosevelt were holding back in their aid of the Soviet Union because his paranoid side said that the Germans could not be capable of sinking as many ships as they were in the dangerous route to Archangel.

Quote:
2. The Germans and the Russians didn't hate each other before the WWII! The Russian Csars after, I believe, 1765, were German by origin, including Ekatherine the Great. Nicolas II and the Kaser Wilhelm II were cousins. Ethnic Germans were serving in the highest state and military posts of the Russian Empire including prime-minister's. When the Germans were occupying some russian territory in the WWI, they behaved, more or less.
A.) King George, Kaiser Wilhelm and Czar Alexander were all cousins and used to spend the summers together in England. B.) Brest-Livotsk. C.) WWI was, for the most part, fought honorably by all parties involved so that is a mute point.

Quote:
So, when they advanced again in 1941, many people, including the Jews(!!) didn't want to flee, saying:"The Germans are civilized people, why should we fear them?"
Because the "Civilized German people" and their leaders had been shouting for the "solution to the Jewish problem" for years.

Quote:
3. Are you aware of the role the Soviets played in the restoration of the German War Machine in the 20-ies? Of the visits made by the future Wermaxt generals(including Guderian) to The Red Army training centers?
Of course, just like China is doing in North Korea, they wanted a buffer between the Capitalist pigs.

Quote:
4. I have started to climb mountains in the USSR more than 30 years ago. At that time, we still had some old instructors who fought in the war in the Caucasus mountains. They told us - EVERY officer and many men of the German alpine division had an opportunity to visit these mountains before the war! There were climbing there with their Russian friends. So, when they came back in 1942, the fights were often personal - the enemies were often known by their first names!
That may be true, but still doesn't change the fact that from everything I have heard/read about WWII; Nazi's and Communist's, Hitler and Stalin, shared a very strong hatred for each other and as history seems to have shown the Non-Aggression Pact appears to have been little more than a facade and the brutality with which the Germans and Soviets treated each other which seems to imply that they really didn't care for the other.

Quote:
Of course, the brutality of the Nazi occupation and the bitter fighting has changed all that. But it wasn't always the case...
The brutality was far from one sided and I am willing to bet that Russian Gulags were around far longer than Concentration Camps.
January 22nd, 2006  
boris116
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien435
Because the "Civilized German people" and their leaders had been shouting for the "solution to the Jewish problem" for years..
And why did the poor people had no idea about this "solution"?
Because their Communist leaders hid this information from them!




Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien435
That may be true, but still doesn't change the fact that from everything I have heard/read about WWII; Nazi's and Communist's, Hitler and Stalin, shared a very strong hatred for each other and as history seems to have shown the Non-Aggression Pact appears to have been little more than a facade and the brutality with which the Germans and Soviets treated each other which seems to imply that they really didn't care for the other...
I don't have much personal experience with the Nazis(thank God!), but I lived for 35 years under the Communist rule. We were trained to believe in what the Party told us, without questioning. Today this guy a genius and a hero, tomorrow - after just one article in "Pravda" - he is a scumbag.
When i was in college, I had to study the History of CPSU. Somehow, our dorm had 3 copies of the textbook -c.1946, c. 1961 and c. 1976. There were 3 completly different versions of the same events and leaders' role in them! In the 50-es the Soviet people were told to befriend the Red Chinese and they did. In the 60-ies they were told to hate them. And they did.

What I am trying to say here that these two ideologies were not far from each other. In some situations, they could coexist and cooperate, like in Germany of the 20-ies and early 30-ies, when the Browns and the Reds were allied against the Social Democrats.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien435
The brutality was far from one sided and I am willing to bet that Russian Gulags were around far longer than Concentration Camps.
No disagreement here
January 22nd, 2006  
Doppleganger
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by boris116
You are right in one major issue - these two tirans couldn't share the same Earth for a long time. But on everything else we can argue

1. The difference between the Nazi and Commie is not as big as you think.
Racial superiority vs. Class superiority, that's all. This is theory
In their practical application both regimes were so similar. From mass propaganda and youth's indocrination from their suppression of any dissent to the foreign aggression - they were like brothers!
Do you know that Gestapo and NKVD used to have joint seminars to share their methods and findings, that more German communists of high rank have been destroyed in Gulag than by Gestapo? They were much better pair than the trio FDR-Churchill-Stalin, don't you think?
2. The Germans and the Russians didn't hate each other before the WWII! The Russian Csars after, I believe, 1765, were German by origin, including Ekatherine the Great. Nicolas II and the Kaser Wilhelm II were cousins. Ethnic Germans were serving in the highest state and military posts of the Russian Empire including prime-minister's. When the Germans were occupying some russian territory in the WWI, they behaved, more or less.
So, when they advanced again in 1941, many people, including the Jews(!!) didn't want to flee, saying:"The Germans are civilized people, why should we fear them?"
3. Are you aware of the role the Soviets played in the restoration of the German War Machine in the 20-ies? Of the visits made by the future Wermaxt generals(including Guderian) to The Red Army training centers?
4. I have started to climb mountains in the USSR more than 30 years ago. At that time, we still had some old instructors who fought in the war in the Caucasus mountains. They told us - EVERY officer and many men of the German alpine division had an opportunity to visit these mountains before the war! There were climbing there with their Russian friends. So, when they came back in 1942, the fights were often personal - the enemies were often known by their first names!

Of course, the brutality of the Nazi occupation and the bitter fighting has changed all that. But it wasn't always the case...
You're right, in a sense. The ideologies of Nazism and Communism are, in theory, diametrically opposed. But in practice they are in many ways almost the same.

I think it's possible that the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany could have been allies, but only if Hitler had been different. But then that's a pretty big if!
January 26th, 2006  
boris116
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger
You're right, in a sense. The ideologies of Nazism and Communism are, in theory, diametrically opposed. But in practice they are in many ways almost the same.

I think it's possible that the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany could have been allies, but only if Hitler had been different. But then that's a pretty big if!
Stalin : The Court of the Red Tsar

I am highly recommending this book. The author(he is British) has managed to meet with the surviving memebers of Stalin's inner circle, their descendants, people who worked for him - secretaries, maids, etc. He visited most, if not all former Stalin's retreats newr Moscow, in Crimea and Caucasus. It's an amazing book!
February 1st, 2006  
roverin
 
 

As the Dunkirk evacuation was in progress and in its aftermath the French as a Nation and as an Army were divided.The supporters of Vichy France collaborated with the Nazis and the Colonies were all under the Vichy govt which had been recognized by the Germans.However all the french were not collaborators and a considerable body of the retreating army evacuated to England during the Dunkirk Evacuation .There was a considerable lot of dissent among the units in the colonies under the control of the Vichies and a lot of offrs and men broke away to join ranks with the free french fighting under General De Gaulle who had set up his Hq under the Allied Supreme Command in England.The heroic resistance offered by former French soldiers who had gone underground in occupied France together with their civilian compatroits as the famous French Resistance can not be overlooked.A formal cease of hostilities by Marshal Petain and the laying down of arms by the surviving Army doesn't overshadow the overall French contribution to the cause of the Allies and should be considered in its proper historical perspective.
May 4th, 2010  
FUNeral
 
I personally think that all alliances are worthless. Thier sole purpose is to scare off potential enemies. Its like that: Kid gets beaten, calls for older bros, bros beat the attacker. That doesnt change the fact that kid got beaten. And dont kid urself... nowadays NATO works the same way. US runs around shouting: DONT TOUCH MY LITTLE BROTHER! The problem is, they have too many "little brothers" and they cant even hit back all the culprits. Getting back to september, we simply got tricked into alliance that didnt benefit us at all ( kid got beaten, people died ). Technically it was suppose to benefit our allies. But it failed. France & Co. thought that Hitler "wouldnt dare" to attack us, when there are big brothers waiting to hit him back...
May 9th, 2010  
Korean Seaboy
 
 
Still, UK and France realized what they had after Poland