Why did Germany lose WW2?

Monty......You mentioned about Macchi and the Fiat G55 Italian fighters, now they first flew in 1942 and did not enter service till 1943 and by then North Africa was all but lost. Yes they were fine aircraft but Italy never produced enough of them to have any effect on the war. Now while we are talking weapons can you name an Italian Tank that made any impression during WW2, also what about artillery. Both the British and Americans had fine field guns and the Germans had the 88 which made a name for its self now what about the Italians. Also machine guns We had the Bren the Vickers and the Lewis all which worked well, The Americans had a long list of machine guns which were first class and so did the Germans could you tell us any famous produced Machine gun on the Italian side.
Also if you where an Italian soldier just how hard would you fight for Hitler when the Germans would take what they wanted from you at a point of gun as they did on a number occasions.
 
Monty......You mentioned about Macchi and the Fiat G55 Italian fighters, now they first flew in 1942 and did not enter service till 1943 and by then North Africa was all but lost. Yes they were fine aircraft but Italy never produced enough of them to have any effect on the war. Now while we are talking weapons can you name an Italian Tank that made any impression during WW2, also what about artillery. Both the British and Americans had fine field guns and the Germans had the 88 which made a name for its self now what about the Italians. Also machine guns We had the Bren the Vickers and the Lewis all which worked well, The Americans had a long list of machine guns which were first class and so did the Germans could you tell us any famous produced Machine gun on the Italian side.
Also if you where an Italian soldier just how hard would you fight for Hitler when the Germans would take what they wanted from you at a point of gun as they did on a number occasions.

The Beretta M 1935 was a fine pistol and well sort after by souvenir hunters.

In terms of sub-machine guns the Beretta 38A was reasonably popular and used by Italy, Germany and Romania throughout the war and in fact the Italians used it long after the war.

In terms of Artillery the Italians produced mountain artillery that was as good as any fielded throughout the war an example would be Obice de 75/18 modello 34 and modello 35 they also had the Cannone da 75/32 modello 37 which was employed successfully in an antitank role.

Armour wise the Semovente da 105/25 was employed successfully as a tank destroyer although mostly by the Germans after the Italian surrender and by all accounts was considered the best of the Italian armoured vehicles but they also produced the Carro Armato P 40 which was an adequate medium tank.

Now I have answered some of your questions how about we stop with the "why would they fight for Hitler" line as the Italians were never dragged into any wars by Hitler in fact if you look closely enough you will see that it is the other way around.
 
Hi Monty.....Thanks for the list of weapons that the Italians nearly had.
The Tank destroyer that you mentioned Semovente 105/25 was a first class weapon that was made in 1943 and they managed to make all of 30 of them before they surrendered.
The Tank also Carro Armato 40 again made in 1943 and it is rumoured that they made at least one tank before they surrendered. The Germans carried on making them but as they had no engines were dug into the ground for static defence.
Obice 75/18 the model 34 was obsolete before the war started and they were mountain guns and had limited range as they need to be light to be transported by mules over the mountains.
There was no real heavy artillery on the Italian side and although some of there field guns were quite good none of them measured up to either the British weapons or the Germans.
 
Perhaps the problem is one of perception. The German Army continued to fight right until the end in both the East and the West. That the Italian Army did not follow suit may reflect better upon it. The average Italian soldier was not quite so as enthusiastic about the founding of a new "Roman Empire" as his leader once the reality of the task became clear. The arduous conditions of the desert and the lack of preparation for the endeavour did nothing to instil him with duty to a distant dictator. That tens of thousands of Italians chose, voluntarily, to join with the Allies and fight the Germans in the equally inhospitable terrain of their homeland should not be overlooked, yet often is. That the average Italian soldier chose not to lay down his life in pursuit of Mussolini's dream of conquest should stand their memory in rather better stead than it has done.
 
19 December 1941: The Decima Flottiglia MAS attacked the port of Alexandria with three maiali. The battleships HMS Valiant and Queen Elizabeth (and an 8,000-ton tanker) were sunk in shallow water putting them out of action for many months. Luigi Durand de la Penne and five other swimmers were taken prisoner. De la Penne was awarded the Gold Medal of Military Valor after the war.

The idea was even copied by the British.
The Medal wasn't given to him untill after Italy switched side, he was presented the Medal by Adm Cunningham who's Battleships he sank!
HMS Dreadnaught was inspired by an article by the Chief Constructor of the Royal Italian Navy, Vittorio Cuniberti, the Italians rejected the idea but Jackie Fisher took the ball & ran with it.
The Italians could develop very powerfull aircraft racing engines in the 1,500-2,000 HP range, but couldn't produce a reliable long lasting engine in the 1,00-1,200 HP range. One of Germany's Balkan allies wanted to produce Panther tanks, but the German's wanted too much for the license, might have made a diffrence in Russia.
 
Hi Monty.....Thanks for the list of weapons that the Italians nearly had.
The Tank destroyer that you mentioned Semovente 105/25 was a first class weapon that was made in 1943 and they managed to make all of 30 of them before they surrendered.
The Tank also Carro Armato 40 again made in 1943 and it is rumoured that they made at least one tank before they surrendered. The Germans carried on making them but as they had no engines were dug into the ground for static defence.
Obice 75/18 the model 34 was obsolete before the war started and they were mountain guns and had limited range as they need to be light to be transported by mules over the mountains.
There was no real heavy artillery on the Italian side and although some of there field guns were quite good none of them measured up to either the British weapons or the Germans.

Yes but to be fair the much vaunted 88mmKwK36 began life as the KwK18 in 1928, the PzKpfwVI was on the drawing boards in 1937 well before the war began and the Pz I, II and III were early 1930's designs and not much better than any Italian design if they were indeed better.

In terms of armour early in the war the German successes were not due to quality armaments but quality training and superior tactics.

The Italian artillery I mentioned were mid to late 30s designs or upgrades to WW1 designs but you make it sound like they were firing cannonballs and muskets when the Italians were equipped with adequate weaponry for the early stages of the war.

I notice we haven't touched on the Italian navy yet either.

Perhaps the problem is one of perception. The German Army continued to fight right until the end in both the East and the West. That the Italian Army did not follow suit may reflect better upon it. The average Italian soldier was not quite so as enthusiastic about the founding of a new "Roman Empire" as his leader once the reality of the task became clear. The arduous conditions of the desert and the lack of preparation for the endeavour did nothing to instil him with duty to a distant dictator. That tens of thousands of Italians chose, voluntarily, to join with the Allies and fight the Germans in the equally inhospitable terrain of their homeland should not be overlooked, yet often is. That the average Italian soldier chose not to lay down his life in pursuit of Mussolini's dream of conquest should stand their memory in rather better stead than it has done.

I disagree, the "average Italian soldier" happily invaded Albania, Greece and Egypt until some one on the opposing side fired back and then "average Italian soldier" bravely ran away or surrendered that isn't a trait of someone opposed to conquest just of someone not prepared for the consequences of their actions.
 
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I agree with Monty, I think you guys are trying every argument in the book to defend an honestly rubbish war effort.

Growing up on my Grandads stories of his brothers experiences with the Italians has left me with an impression of them as not only crap fighters, but at times sadistic and cruel prison guards who ran away leaving their post when they first heard a haka and screaming in the distance.

Its the stereotype born in WW2 that Italians take dives or the easy option out which makes 67 odd years later ads like this so funny.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20XuPlde-Z0"]ITALIAN SOCCER TRAINING -WATCH IT- - YouTube[/ame]

I am aware that there is a lot of opinion in my spiel and not a lot of facts but I am interested to know how other countries felt about Italy- not in scientific terms but as a general opinion.
 
The performance of the Italian armed forces during the Second World War has been the butt of jokes for over sixty years. However the notion that the Italian military fought poorly and surrendered readily is not exactly true as there are examples of Italian forces fighting quite successfully and bravely. But the widespread belief seemed to be that the Italians were cowards, with disasters such as the failed takeover of a much weaker Greece and ineffective fighting in North Africa used as evidence. While these and other military mistakes by Italy do stand out, these debacles were not due to cowardice by the soldiers. What the Italian military lacked during their offensive campaigns was not bravery, but modern weaponry, good leadership and above all a clear lack of desire to achieve Mussolini's goals.

When the poorly led Italian troops were used in conjunction with, or under German forces, they fought considerably better. The Italian forces that participated in Hitler's invasion of Russia were known to have fought particularly well, despite facing vastly superior numbers of Soviet troops and harsh weather. In fact, the bravery of the Italian Alpini (mountain troops) and Voloire (horse artillery) regiments during Operation Barbarossa was legendary. Italy's attempt to take over Greece was a complete disaster; Italy was beaten back by the much weaker Greeks into Albania. Once Germany took over the Greece campaign, the Italian forces under their command fought much more effectively than under their own generals.

Most countries had embarassing incidents. The British lost Singapore to an exhausted outnumbered Japanese army. The Russians lost massive armies in the early days of Barbarossa. The Yugoslav Army was overwhelmed in a few days in 1941, and the French debacle is well known. Actually on a tactical level the Italians were even outnumbered in the stupid invasion of Greece. Only the Italians seem to remain mocked for their participation in World War II. Maybe because they were on the losing side and then switched sides. Both the British and the Germans had an interest in portraying the Italians in a foolish light. The British to augment morale when they were outclassed by the Germans, and the Germans would blame their defeats on the Italians. That being said Mussolini grew more and more inept , the country had no infrastructure to support a modern army, and the people's heart wasn't in the fight.
 
The performance of the Italian armed forces during the Second World War has been the butt of jokes for over sixty years. However the notion that the Italian military fought poorly and surrendered readily is not exactly true as there are examples of Italian forces fighting quite successfully and bravely. But the widespread belief seemed to be that the Italians were cowards, with disasters such as the failed takeover of a much weaker Greece and ineffective fighting in North Africa used as evidence. While these and other military mistakes by Italy do stand out, these debacles were not due to cowardice by the soldiers. What the Italian military lacked during their offensive campaigns was not bravery, but modern weaponry, good leadership and above all a clear lack of desire to achieve Mussolini's goals.

When the poorly led Italian troops were used in conjunction with, or under German forces, they fought considerably better. The Italian forces that participated in Hitler's invasion of Russia were known to have fought particularly well, despite facing vastly superior numbers of Soviet troops and harsh weather. In fact, the bravery of the Italian Alpini (mountain troops) and Voloire (horse artillery) regiments during Operation Barbarossa was legendary. Italy's attempt to take over Greece was a complete disaster; Italy was beaten back by the much weaker Greeks into Albania. Once Germany took over the Greece campaign, the Italian forces under their command fought much more effectively than under their own generals.

Most countries had embarassing incidents. The British lost Singapore to an exhausted outnumbered Japanese army. The Russians lost massive armies in the early days of Barbarossa. The Yugoslav Army was overwhelmed in a few days in 1941, and the French debacle is well known. Actually on a tactical level the Italians were even outnumbered in the stupid invasion of Greece. Only the Italians seem to remain mocked for their participation in World War II. Maybe because they were on the losing side and then switched sides. Both the British and the Germans had an interest in portraying the Italians in a foolish light. The British to augment morale when they were outclassed by the Germans, and the Germans would blame their defeats on the Italians. That being said Mussolini grew more and more inept , the country had no infrastructure to support a modern army, and the people's heart wasn't in the fight.

I am not as convinced as my fellow countryman I am afraid. :)

For a start I disagree that the Italians were poorly equipped, I concede that there gear was not "great" but it was adequate, they had a Navy second to none in the region, the army was equipped with weaponry from the 1930's era albeit modified WW1 designs and the air force had aircraft capable of matching the early RAF.

In all of the debacles you have mentioned none were on the magnitude of what the Italians managed, 300,000 of them invaded Egypt and not only were stopped but all lost Italian colonies in Africa and almost all of Libya to 30,000 poorly equipped British troops.

The invasion of Greece, it is not enough to just say it was a royal screw up of epic proportions because they not only were again stopped but ended up losing a third of Albania to a Greek Army that was formed only months if that before the Italian invasion.

Hell Benito thought he could get in on the German invasion of France and merrily got his arse handed to him by a couple of French Battalions.

There is literally no where that an Italian army got involved in that did not end up a disaster, 75,000 Germans surrendered in North Africa, 100,000 survivors at Stalingrad since a Russian army just happened to pick the Italians to drive through and 100,000+ in Italy because they did not have the desire to even defend their own country.

Further to this I like Headwards grew up on the stories of New Zealand's involvement in North Africa and Italy as I also had a number of family members there and the stories are exactly the same.

Now as I have said previously I have no doubt that the Italians had several fine divisions that fought well but on the whole their reputation for putting in a "crap war effort" is in my opinion justified, I can not recall one single positive thing they (1 father + 6 uncles) had to say about the Italian forces they encountered either as fighters or as POWs and while I accept it is only anecdotal evidence it is a consistent story presented by both sides which must carry some weight.

It you seriously want to discuss a poorly equipped army operating in adverse conditions then perhaps a look at the Romanian forces is in order as they were extremely badly equipped for the job at hand and yet performed well enough to receive commendations from von Manstein where by comparison the Italians gave Rommel a headache.
 
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My first name is Scott if that suits you better then Headwards buddy haha.

I enjoyed reading that- it will be interesting to see if anyone can form a logical rebuttal.

Thanks Monty
 
Well, as I said before, my uncle Charlie was in the LRDG in North Africa and then he went onto Italy finally ending up in Austria. His remarks regarding the Italian Army was, they had very poor equipment, were badly led by their own officers, BUT their artillery and machine gunners were very good. As Opa stated the Italian Alpini (mountain troops) and Voloire (horse artillery) regiments during Operation Barbarossa was legendary.

I always give credit where its due.
 
My first name is Scott if that suits you better then Headwards buddy haha.

I enjoyed reading that- it will be interesting to see if anyone can form a logical rebuttal.

Thanks Monty

Hehe I am sure Der Alte will find the hole in my argument and for the most part I agree with the last part of his post even though there is a cross argument in there and he is right there were some very fine Italian units.

However oddly enough the thread has derailed itself in some respects as my point was not really to stick the boot into the Italians as much as it was to support the argument that Germany lacked an ally that could genuinely back it up and that the time, manpower and material wasted in providing the backbone for its allies were a drain on resources in crucial times that they could not afford (especially in the 6 week Balkans campaign).
 
I saw that happen, and I think perhaps it was a response to a kind of unconscious sympathy, or exasperation the ahem 'older gentlemen' feel at the old I.T's getting the boot stuck in them one more time because people think they were *******s.
Your initial points really didn't address or question any of the things which the rebuttals were made of though, so pretty poor debating haha.

I suppose if I was in the war but didn't work with them directly I might appreciate how horrible it must have been for the Italians. Everyone that did however doesn't have the time of day.
Well except for Brit's Uncle, but really how much time can you spend getting to know someone when your weekdays involve screaming down airfields firing the biggest guns you can strap to the bonnet of your land rover.
 
What did Germany get out of Italy joining the Axis?

A buffer zone that would not present Germany's underbelly to an allied invasion. While in our past, the Allies did invade Italy and marched north, it took a conciderable amount of time, and was concidered by some as a waste of time.

Another big consideration was the ability to to threaten the Suez Canal and Britain's supply lines to its Asian colonies. In addition to being able to threaten shipping in the Mediterranean from the Italian mainland and Libya, at the beginning of the war Italy controlled the Horn of Africa.

As it turned out, they lost the east African colonies very quickly and the Germans had to step in to hold on to the north African ones. But had the Italians actually been able to defend their possessions or even take Egypt, it could have helped starve out Britain faster.

And while the Italian army wasn't very effective, Italy's at least nominal control of several strategic points in the Mediterranean was a constant threat to British supply lines in the first years of the war.

Strategically, one big attraction to the alliance was the Italian navy. The Regia Marina was significant, both large and relatively modern, and it was positioned in the middle of an area strategically critical to Britain.

In the course of events, the British beat the Italians lopsidedly twice (Battle of Cape Matapan and Taranto), but we have the advantage of hindsight, they seemed formidable before these battles.

It's my opinion that, in general, the poor performance of the Italian forces in the war reflects not so much on the bravery of the Italians as on the fact that the average Italian did not want to be in that war. They were longstanding admirers of the United States (since so many had immigrated) and were horrified to find themselves at war with the US, and they rightly judged the idea of invading the Soviet Union as crazy, but in both cases were dragged into it by their German Allies. I imagine that finding they would have to fight a total war against the UK, the US, and the USSR all at the same time would have disheartened any sane Italian.

They did have more than their share of bad leaders. But most important of all, the Italian generals were trained to the trench warfare of World War I and were not prepared at all for the new style of mechanized war based on the German "blitzkrieg" model.

It looks like Italy's joining in the war was to a large extent a result of events overtaking Mussolini. Like many others including pros in the German military he had not expected the Big One to start in '39 and thus was only just starting to apply lessons learned from Ethiopia and Spain and planned upgrades including not just new gear but a new doctrine of mobile tactics; like many other countries their forces on the field at war's start were nowhere near their "paper" strength in numbers or equipment.

Once war was on, again following conventional wisdom he had expected the campaign in France to be a slower grind so he could be a valuable asset by merely threatening a southern front. But then France began collapsing fast and Italy was faced with a "now or never" choice to enter the war as an active combatant on his own initiative and be on Germany's good side as a reliable ally in his own right. Now that the smart money flipped to expecting that Germany would just roll over everyone relatively quickly, Mussolini risked having been a mere spectator at the critical point and Italy becoming just an accessory satellite subject to being itself preyed upon in due course. (Franco at least had the excuse of a nation in ruins to argue he was in no position to formally join the fight.) Once he was in, though, he was in for the whole calzone.

On paper the Italian military was a strong force, and specific units and pieces of equipment were up to the task so they could be an asset for specific operations. But as a whole it needed upgrading, had poor leadership (too much political and "social" promotion) facing an unfamiliar change in tactical doctrine, defective attention to training and morale, and lacked depth to sustain extended (in range and in time) fronts, not only militarily but also industrially. And yes, a lot of the force and the people, even from the start and increasingly more as it went along, grew to feel they were fighting in the wrong war. That really saps your effectiveness, and eventually his own government and army got sick of it and booted Mussolini from office in '43.
 
I saw that happen, and I think perhaps it was a response to a kind of unconscious sympathy, or exasperation the ahem 'older gentlemen' feel at the old I.T's getting the boot stuck in them one more time because people think they were *******s.
Your initial points really didn't address or question any of the things which the rebuttals were made of though, so pretty poor debating haha.

I suppose if I was in the war but didn't work with them directly I might appreciate how horrible it must have been for the Italians. Everyone that did however doesn't have the time of day.
Well except for Brit's Uncle, but really how much time can you spend getting to know someone when your weekdays involve screaming down airfields firing the biggest guns you can strap to the bonnet of your land rover.

Yes well perhaps I was having an off day.
:)

However I really did not expect that it would break down in to a "poor Italy" argument, I would also like to point out that it is not only the Italians that bear the brunt of a poor showing during WW2 the French get pretty well lambasted for their failures early on as well but the Free French forces went on to be a very successful combat forces and by all accounts even the Vichy French forces put up a good showing in Syria.

Still I suppose I should attempt to put the boot in...
Lets look at Operation Compass after ten weeks, 13 Corps had advanced 800 km, destroyed or captured about 400 tanks and around 1,300 artillery pieces, and captured 130,000 Italian prisoners (including 22 generals), along with a vast quantity of war material. This was accomplished at a cost of only 494 killed.

Does this sound like an army that put up a fight or even wanted to put up a fight?
Seriously if every one of those 130,000 Italians had fired 1 bullet before hoisting the white flag I am pretty sure they would have hit more than 494 of the opposition.

The desert campaign is littered with Italian reports of inflicting heavy casualties on the allied forces hell in Operation BACON they even managed to take 1400 prisoners in a battle they weren't even at.

As I have said I do not really disagree with Der Altes assessment however I am not convinced that poor training, poor leadership, deluded dictators and a lack of desire to be at war negates the fact that they performed badly on all fronts it just explains why the performed badly.
 
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As I have said I do not really disagree with Der Altes assessment however I am not convinced that poor training, poor leadership, deluded dictators and a lack of desire to be at war negates the fact that they performed badly on all fronts it just explains why the performed badly.

All these factors have a disastrous effect on morale, high morale is vital for a man to perform at his best.
 
Operation Compass.....This was one of the few times in the early part of the war where the UK & Commonwealth Soldiers came across another army that was more poorly equipped and more badly led than they were. The Italians had nothing that could stop a Matilda Tank, it was like our troops when they first came across the German Tiger Tank. Also Operation Compass was one of the few times that our troops swept right around the Italian garrison and cut them off and with out food and all the other things that troops need they had no option but to surrender
 
A buffer zone that would not present Germany's underbelly to an allied invasion. While in our past, the Allies did invade Italy and marched north, it took a conciderable amount of time, and was concidered by some as a waste of time.

Another big consideration was the ability to to threaten the Suez Canal and Britain's supply lines to its Asian colonies. In addition to being able to threaten shipping in the Mediterranean from the Italian mainland and Libya, at the beginning of the war Italy controlled the Horn of Africa.

But couldn't the Germans have achieved the exact same thing by simply enforcing or demanding Italian neutrality?

The threat to Suez would have remained as long as Italy had a presence in North Africa, Germany's underbelly was guaranteed by with a neutral Italy and Greece which was in the end completely screwed up by Italy's attack on Greece thus bringing the British into the region and lets face it Spain had a crap military and were tacit allies of Germany but were smart enough to stay neutral, no one attacked Franco to get to the Germans.
 
Because Captain Edmund Blackadder showed up, along with Private Baldrick and Hugh Laurie. DARLING.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHJDyAnL9RQ"]Blackadder How Did WW1 Start? - YouTube[/ame]

That is why the Germans lost the war. :p
 
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