The link for German IR myths ends with:

Most of those reports can't be confirmed and are questionable.

One might ask why print the article then!

The claimed wipe-out of British and American tanks in 1945 by IR Panthers has long ago been shown to be invention.

Originally Posted by mkenny

The link for German IR myths ends with:

Most of those reports can't be confirmed and are questionable.

One might ask why print the article then!

The claimed wipe-out of British and American tanks in 1945 by IR Panthers has long ago been shown to be invention.

Questionable by who? By what standards are they questionable? Was the personnel reporting it mentally ill or unreliable in some way or is their validity questioned simply because they lack absolutely finality ie pictures and a thousand witnesses?

Again stop posting under bias, you already lost any credibility you might have had.

Originally Posted by Panzercracker

Questionable by who? By what standards are they questionable? Was the personnel reporting it mentally ill or unreliable in some way or is their validity questioned simply because they lack absolutely finality ie pictures and a thousand witnesses?

Your new to this right?
The article you referenced has been around a decde or more. Most of it has long since been shown to be fantasy. So much so that the last sentence: had to be added
Most of those reports can't be confirmed and are questionable.

It would have been better just to take it down but as you are finding out elsewhere the web is very unreliable. Only the greenest ardent fan-boy would quote that article.

Want an example?

In April of 1945, Panthers equipped with IR equipment (solution B) joined Panzer Division Clausewitz and in mid April near Uelzen destroyed entire platoon of British Comet cruiser tanks. Also on April 21st of 1945, same Panthers overran an American anti-tank position on the Weser-Elbe Canal.

Read the post directly after this for the truth

In 1995 Feist and Culver published their Panther book

the following 2 claims are made on pages 169 and 170:
1
One action took place on the 21st of April 1945. The last ten
tanks of "Clausewitz", followed by a Puma 20 mm (Sd.Kfz.
234/1) recce vehicle, approached a US antitank-gun position
(76 mm AT gun M2) at the Weser/Elbe Canal. This first attack
took place at 2 o'clock in the morning. The Americans were
alert and fired illumination rounds. The leading Panther was
then hit and slipped into a ditch, the attack halted. Then the IR
Panthers moved into cover and after a short time located the
guns and fired some twenty rounds. The entire position was
destroyed, the crews and the accompanying infantry company
escaping in somewhat of a panic. The IR Panthers followed
up, destroying some lorries and further support vehicles.
This attack was a success, revealing the enormous possibili-
ties of the IR technology. It is not known, whether the IR
Panthers of "Clausewitz" were used a second time.

2
Some reports tell of a last action of thus equipped IR Panthers
when they met a British armored division. A British platoon
equipped with Comet tanks was engaged in April 1945 (at
night) by some Solution B IR Panthers. In a short, one-sided
and fierce firelight the entire platoon was annihilated..

These claims are repeated in their 1998 Panther book
they are also picked up in the 1996 Concord book ( page 66) and they match so closely they must be sourced in Culver and Feist



These 2 sites repeat the claims
http://www.geocities.com/desertfox18...ngpanthers.htm
http://www.achtungpanzer.com/articles/ir.htm
but they are so worded as to be obvious repeats of the Culver and Feist claims.

This indicates that there is only the one source, Culver and Feist.

It is interesting that though the Culver and Feist books mention a photograph of a solution B Panther in their 1995 book it is only printed in the 1996 Anderson book.


Unfortunately this photo turned out to be a fake and thus completely demolished the claim for a Solution B Panther.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/47207...Oed+in+Falaise

The way I see it then we have the claim for the use of 2 IR Panthers on the night of 21st April 1945.
I found this
http://www.5ad.org/04_45.html

and the report for 21/4/45 states:
On 21 April, the Division attacked north from a line of departure DAHRE - SALZWEDEL with CCA on the left and CCR on the right. Just prior to the attack, CCA was counter-attacked by elements of Division "Clausewitz". Artillery fire was placed on the attacking forces and they broke and dispersed into the woods to the north.

CCA attacked against a determined enemy who had set up make shift defenses in the woods along the combat command's routes of advance. An increase in the use of anti-tank mines was observed, and fire from nebelwerfers and artillery pieces slowed the advance to some extent. At 2100, the 46th Amrd Inf Bn (married) was assembling for the night in the vicinity of GADDAU. The married "C" companies (46th Armd Inf Bn and 34th Tank Bn) went into position with the CCA CP near KLENZE and the 34th Tank Bn (married) assembled in the vicinity of BERGEN .

CCR was held up in its attack until 1500. The reason for this was that the resistance in front of CCA was such that the two combat commands could not parallel each other's advance, and thus a threat existed to the flank of either, if one was held up and the other moved too rapidly forward. After CCA had cracked the resistance in its sector, CCR attacked with the 47th Armd Inf Bn (married) advancing north on the SALZWEDEL - LUCHOW road and the 10th Tank Bn (married) attacking on the left to clear the pockets in the woods near BOMBECK. The 47th met a good deal of resistance along its route, and mines were found strewn on the road with a minefield near SAASSE. Road blocks defended by AT guns, nebelwerfers, mortars, and infantry, were encountered all along the route and at 2000, heavy fire from LUCHOW, and vicinity, prompted the force to abandon its further advance that night. The battalion went into a security position near SAASSE. In the meantime, the 10th Tank Bn was attacking in the BOMBECK area. The woods in this vicinity had been reported to be a strong-point of enemy armor and infantry. The positions had been sealed off on the north and east by CCA's attack in the early part of the day. The attack was made with one married tank-infantry company moving south from SEEBEN to the railroad and holding there while the balance of the 10th attacked north from the south edge of the woods.

A quantity of enemy personnel was trapped and captured and material loss for the enemy was large. Three (3) tanks were known to have escaped the trap and these moved northwest into the CCA sector. The 10th Tank Bn secured for the night near GR GERSTEDT.

CCB, with the 85th Cav Rcn Sq Mecz attached, continued its clearing at the KLOTZE FORST. Many burned out enemy vehicles were found along with others which apparently had been abandoned. The combat command also maintained its road blocks on the western boundary of the sector in the WITTINGEN - ZASENBECK RADENBECK area, and kept contact with the 29th Inf Div to the north. An advance Division CP was established at SALZWEDEL and Division operations were directed from there.

(NOTE: Div Arty accomplished its usual efficient mission in a supporting role, and the disorganization and dispersal of enemy units attested to the accuracy of the artillery fire.)

Enemy losses were reported as follows:

personnel, PW's six hundred fifty (650), killed, one hundred fifty nine (159),

material captured or destroyed,

fourteen (14) tanks,
four (4) armored cars,
nine (9) half-tracks,
two (2) SP guns (1-75mm, 1-105mm),
two (2) 88mm AT/AA.guns,
four (4) 105mm guns,
two (2) 20mm flak guns,
seventy-two (72) miscellaneous cycles,
one (1) fuel-lubricant dump containing one hundred fifty (150) 50 gal drums of fuel.

There is no mention of 'panic' nor is there anything about IR Panthers. Why were they not noticed?
Perhaps the US Soldiers would not have known about IR and thus might have missed the signs?
A little further down the same page ( 6. COMMENTS: Section II - Intelligence Matters)
it says:
Two, apparently new and highly secret weapons of the enemy were captured during the period.

At STENAL, Germany a German research technician was taken prisoner. This technician had in his possession and installed on his automobile, Infrared equipment which he was removing from the vicinity of BERLIN and the ultimate danger of capture by the Russians. This equipment was designed for installation on tanks for the purpose of night fighting. The entire equipment, plus the technician was turned over to Enemy Equipment Intelligence Service, NINTH Army. A secret report has been subsequently rendered on this equipment and a copy of the report is on file at this Headquarters.
So it seems they did have the ability to recognise the importance of IR Equipment after all.

The claim about Comets being 'wiped out is even easier to expose as fiction.
The following link shows how easy it is to check out the facts before making these claims:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/47207/thread/954934532/

Originally Posted by Panzercracker

Again stop posting under bias, you already lost any credibility you might have had.

Credibility ?????
People who write things like this

I'm not really into ships so i'm taking it on faith.

should never question other posters credibility.

Good thread here. I read a few pages and it seems there's a lot of things I don't quite agree with.

here's a few things Id like to talk about:

1. Invasion of Yugoslavia: (Im surprised no one mentioned Yugoslavia backstabbing Germany as a reason because the German invasion of Yugoslavia delayed Barbarossa by about 50 days. Without this is very likely Operation Typhoon would have successful.

2. Lötzen Decision: I 100% agree with Hitler for heading to Kiev instead of Moscow. for the following reasons

-The Iron ore and cole in the Ukraine is one of the most plentiful in the world.

-The Soviet Union was using the fortress in the Crimea to bomb Germany's oil production in Ploesti, which accounted for the majority of Germany's oil production.

-Baku would have solved Germany's oil problems

-Ukraine is one of the most industrial rich places in Russia, Odessa, Bessarabia, Kharkov, Kiev, Sevastopol, Kursk are some of the most industrial rich provinces in Russia. Soviet Industrial capacity collapse from ~430 to ~270 by capturing these provinces.

-The Majority of the Soviet forces were there, and a fundamental of Blitzkrieg doctrine is Envelopment targeting the enemy's military.

3. The T-34 menace: The Germans didnt have a tank even have half as good a tank as the T-34 and that caused alot of problems very quickly as soon as Guderian had an army of his completely destroyed by an army of well commanded T-34s on his way to Moscow. The T-34 was the best tank of world war II, I read through 10 pages of this thread and didnt hear even once this mentioned. von Manstien and other have been quoted to saying the Germans had nothing comparable even in late 43 at Kursk the T-34 was still king. It was more maneuverable than Panzer IV and Panzer III which were designed for high Infrastructure, and lacked the wide tracks and sloped armor that the T-34 had. The Panther was rushed into production to try and deal with this problem which led to the disaster at Kursk as they were "Guderians Problem Child."


4. That the Jews were a "bogey man" is entirely false. The Jews were a serious threat to a German dictatorship because they owned everything. Look at USA today, today who rules USA? USA's media is owned by Jews, a politician cannot have a political career without media, and guess who owns it. They also own the United States fiscally as guess who controls the federal reserve. If I were going to stage a Fascist coup on USA, I would consider that a serious threat wouldnt you? Also, the Soviet Union was in the back pocket of the Jews. They were Jewish built, the revolution was funded by you guessed it, the Jews, and remained heavily under Jewish influence for their entire existence, Stalin even had three Jewish wives, so you know who his loyalty was to. The Jews and Germany were ideological enemies, Jews are politically left like the Soviet Union and are the exact opposite of a right wing group like Hitlers regime.

5. Operation Barbarossa: This had to be done, Stalin had his sites on Europe as evident by the attack on Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Poland, Finland, Romania and even non european countries like Persia, theres no doubt Stalin was a Hawk. They were a "Jewish Bolshevik Gang" as Hitler put it. The guy with the Guderian avatar hit the nail on the head on this one they would have attacked Germany in 1943 most likely. The Germans likely would have signed a peace with Russia after they reached the Urals and let Soviet keep everything from Siberia east. This would have solved Germany's resource problems, created a buffer zone, and allowed Germany to attack British India through the Caucasus.

6. Hitler not listening to von Manstein and other generals: von Manstein was the best General Germany had. Hitler refused to listen to him, von Manstein wanted an elastic defense instead of "Holding the Line" as Hitler wanted to do, it worked out very well when Hitler left von Manstein alone for a few months in 1942 and von Manstein employed this concept with great successess and solidified the Eastern Front. In his memoirs "Lost Victories" Manstein recalls the internal struggles within the Wehrmacht regarding strategy formulation, internal organization, and resource allocation. He was apparently one of the few German generals to seriously and openly challenge many of Hitler's decisions. His analysis of Hitler as a military leader is quite fascinating and unusually balanced. Manstein also rightfully and strongly critiques Hitler's disorganized, dictatorial leadership and his increasingly blind faith in the power of will versus massive, well-supplied Soviet armies. Time and time again, Hitler's interference in Manstein's army group operations left much of Manstein's forces perilously exposed to Soviet encirclement. By Spring 1944, Hitler tired of Manstein's repeated demands for a Wehrmacht and feared his increasing personal prestige - forcing Manstein's resignation and retirement from the army.

Well 1, 2, 3, 5 and 6 I can't really argue with although I highly doubt that Germany was planning to leave anything in Russian hands.

4. however I disagree with, just in terms of lost production and manpower alone the treatment of Jews and other minorities in Germany was incredibly stupid. Many of these groups had fought for Germany in WW1 and there is nothing to assume that they would not have done so again in WW2.

Originally Posted by MontyB

Well 1, 2, 3, 5 and 6 I can't really argue with although I highly doubt that Germany was planning to leave anything in Russian hands.

4. however I disagree with, just in terms of lost production and manpower alone the treatment of Jews and other minorities in Germany was incredibly stupid. Many of these groups had fought for Germany in WW1 and there is nothing to assume that they would not have done so again in WW2.

Well I guess we just disagree. Germany's defeat was no doubt Jewish caused, USA was in their back pocket, as well as France, also the German 1918 November Revolution was Jewish caused. World War I was another story, Jews were in it for their own greedy reasons they wanted Germany, and Russia, and were successful. You making them out to help Germany is laughable. Hitler didnt hate Jews for no good reason, every country in europe has kicked out the Jews at one point or another and it isn't for no good reason.

umm no.

I could have sworn it was the bolsheviks that took over Russia and promptly put a halt to religion (of which Judaism is one) as the state was all powerful and not a god.

However religions aside just the loss of scientists, engineers and men of military age due to misguided racial dogma at a time when they were most needed was incredibly stupid.

Originally Posted by MontyB

umm no.

I could have sworn it was the bolsheviks that took over Russia and promptly put a halt to religion (of which Judaism is one) as the state was all powerful and not a god.

However religions aside just the loss of scientists, engineers and men of military age due to misguided racial dogma at a time when they were most needed was incredibly stupid.

The Bolsheviks were funded by Jews. This is accepted by pretty much any historian you talk to.

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v14/v14n1p-4_Weber.html wrote:In the Communist seizure of power in Russia, the Jewish role was probably critical.

Two weeks prior to the Bolshevik "October Revolution" of 1917, Lenin convened a top secret meeting in St. Petersburg (Petrograd) at which the key leaders of the Bolshevik party's Central Committee made the fateful decision to seize power in a violent takeover. Of the twelve persons who took part in this decisive gathering, there were four Russians (including Lenin), one Georgian (Stalin), one Pole (Dzerzhinsky), and six Jews.9

To direct the takeover, a seven-man "Political Bureau" was chosen. It consisted of two Russians (Lenin and Bubnov), one Georgian (Stalin), and four Jews (Trotsky, Sokolnikov, Zinoviev, and Kamenev).10 Meanwhile, the Petersburg (Petrograd) Soviet -- whose chairman was Trotsky -- established an 18-member "Military Revolutionary Committee" to actually carry out the seizure of power. It included eight (or nine) Russians, one Ukrainian, one Pole, one Caucasian, and six Jews.11 Finally, to supervise the organization of the uprising, the Bolshevik Central Committee established a five-man "Revolutionary Military Center" as the Party's operations command. It consisted of one Russian (Bubnov), one Georgian (Stalin), one Pole (Dzerzhinsky), and two Jews (Sverdlov and Uritsky).12

You can google it as well http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&c...&aq=f&oq=&aqi=

and Jewwatch.com has a lot of articles on the Jewish involvement with the Soviet Union.