Yup... we fought Iraq for oil

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mmarsh said:
That's not being brave, that's being dumb. Based on what people have told me I have no absolutely no problem of NOT experiencing that firsthand, and its not that I am afraid, its because I don't want those types of horrible memories haunting me the rest of my life. And that's not being a coward, its being smart. Also I can always tell those who have seen the real darkside and those that haven't. Those who have generally don't go about bragging about it as if we are supposed to be impressed. I am not impressed by you.
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Great, you just inadvertently called everyone who's ever fought for the their country or cause "dumb" up to and including those who fought for America's independence.
Yes you don't want those memories haunting you for the rest of your life but in the end someone needs to.
My grandparents also lived under similar conditions as your folks as well. And they didn't need to had enough folks been willing to take those risks instead.
When there weren't enough, it looked like it was pretty much over but fortunately America had enough people willing to face death and those fears.
I'm not active duty right now, but it may not always be that way. If I do get a chance to be on the line again, I will take it. I've heard the stories from the Japanese Colonial Era through to the Korean War and beyond and I'd rather be one of the guys having to deal with it than sit back and let the fight get to our own folks.

Having said that, military service isn't the only thing in the world that's worthy of recognition. You can argue that without the military, social stability would be zero from outside invaders and no normal life can continue, but on the flip side if everyone was military, our country's standard of living would drop because the economy wouldn't work. And when you consider that you have kids to send to school and hospitals to go to when sick, that's pretty darn important.

I didn't really care whether or not someone thanked me or not for my service... and I only got the occasional thank you because I served even when I could have easily weasled out, and then I chose the *hard* service. Actually it was sort of weird because most of them assumed I was some kind of patriot which wasn't really one of my major motivations.

For the veterans: who cares if someone appreciates, respects or not? That's their right. If they were all required to love the military and never disagree with the military or ever argue with a military or former military person, all these rights we are supposedly protecting would have been violated, no?

For the civilians: The guys in the military sacrifice so much (marriage, money, physical health, mental health, life, etc.) for comparitively very little so please try not to push too many buttons. Understand that at times (often in fact) military folks can be very much on the edge, angry, depressed etc., because that's just a part of their life much more so than most folks in the civilian world.

I think we've gotten it wrong and we really should be trying to understand each other here rather than put each other down.
 
the_13th_redneck said:
Great, you just inadvertently called everyone who's ever fought for the their country or cause "dumb" up to and including those who fought for America's independence.
Yes you don't want those memories haunting you for the rest of your life but in the end someone needs to.
My grandparents also lived under similar conditions as your folks as well. And they didn't need to had enough folks been willing to take those risks instead.
When there weren't enough, it looked like it was pretty much over but fortunately America had enough people willing to face death and those fears.
I'm not active duty right now, but it may not always be that way. If I do get a chance to be on the line again, I will take it. I've heard the stories from the Japanese Colonial Era through to the Korean War and beyond and I'd rather be one of the guys having to deal with it than sit back and let the fight get to our own folks.

Having said that, military service isn't the only thing in the world that's worthy of recognition. You can argue that without the military, social stability would be zero from outside invaders and no normal life can continue, but on the flip side if everyone was military, our country's standard of living would drop because the economy wouldn't work. And when you consider that you have kids to send to school and hospitals to go to when sick, that's pretty darn important.

I didn't really care whether or not someone thanked me or not for my service... and I only got the occasional thank you because I served even when I could have easily weasled out, and then I chose the *hard* service. Actually it was sort of weird because most of them assumed I was some kind of patriot which wasn't really one of my major motivations.

For the veterans: who cares if someone appreciates, respects or not? That's their right. If they were all required to love the military and never disagree with the military or ever argue with a military or former military person, all these rights we are supposedly protecting would have been violated, no?

For the civilians: The guys in the military sacrifice so much (marriage, money, physical health, mental health, life, etc.) for comparitively very little so please try not to push too many buttons. Understand that at times (often in fact) military folks can be very much on the edge, angry, depressed etc., because that's just a part of their life much more so than most folks in the civilian world.

I think we've gotten it wrong and we really should be trying to understand each other here rather than put each other down.
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No thats not what I originally said, but I have to go I will finish later. I was talking about those who think bravery is related to seeing terrible things.

And I was angry at some of what USMC03 nasty and totally uncalled for reply, and have calmed down and deleted my original post and replaced it with another.
 
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mmarsh said:
No thats not what I originally said, but I have to go I will finish later. I was talking about those who think bravery is related to seeing terrible things.

And I was angry at some of what USMC nasty reply, and have calmed down.
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Mmarsh I know you're better than that and what you said was out of anger/frustration.
It's late here and I was supposed to be asleep hours ago so I think I'll pick up on this one later as well.
 
Thanks 13th

I have changed my mind, I dont see any good coming of me continually posting here, and my next post might have been totally out of character of me so I will drop it.
 
mmarsh said:
I

KJ

Yes bad things can happen anywhere. The incidents you mention (9-11...etc) But that really is the exception not the rule. Do you know what the odds are of such a thing happening to an individual? You are more likely to be struck by lightning. There is the flip side, good things can randomly happen too. The story of the women how donated a kidney to a total stranger, the philanthropist who decided to build a school in a poor neighborhood etc...
The problem is the media always focuses on all that's horrible, which is why we think the world is worse than it really is.

QUOTE]

No, you still don´t get it..
I can give you alot of more incidents that have occured.
And I can tell you that without the people on the line doing their jobs there would be alot more.
For every incident there has been you can multiply it by four.
That are only the incidents that have reached the forward states of planning and have had to been shut down by the people that does it for a living.

And screw you, I don´t want your respect for what I have seen.
I never said I did.
In fact I hope you never see that kind of thing.
You did not step forward.

I mearly wonder on what basis you question the people on this here site that have done what you didn´t want to do?
If you want to talk about the media image?
It has done us a great disservice by reporting some and not all.
I for one had preferred the media did not report anything in wartime.
Why? Because the ones that shy away from war are the last people on earth to judge the people who face it.
Either all, from all sides or nothing at all.

I don´t question the merits of your civilian job whatever that may be.
Why do you question the merits of my job that you know nothing about?

//KJ.
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Rob Henderson said:
http://www.military-quotes.com/forum/contemplation-music-t76355.html



I think everyone participating in this argument should read this speech.

Gentlemen, it's not about who's better than who... The fact is that the military needs the civilians, and the civilians need the military.
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"The artists are the ones who might be
able to help us with our internal, invisible lives."

Good luck with that.

I read that speech and it has absolutely no bearing on this argument but perhaps your opening statement.
That´s how I see it.

//KJ.
 
KJ said:
mmarsh said:
I

KJ

Yes bad things can happen anywhere. The incidents you mention (9-11...etc) But that really is the exception not the rule. Do you know what the odds are of such a thing happening to an individual? You are more likely to be struck by lightning. There is the flip side, good things can randomly happen too. The story of the women how donated a kidney to a total stranger, the philanthropist who decided to build a school in a poor neighborhood etc...
The problem is the media always focuses on all that's horrible, which is why we think the world is worse than it really is.

QUOTE]

No, you still don´t get it..
I can give you alot of more incidents that have occured.
And I can tell you that without the people on the line doing their jobs there would be alot more.
For every incident there has been you can multiply it by four.
That are only the incidents that have reached the forward states of planning and have had to been shut down by the people that does it for a living.

And screw you, I don´t want your respect for what I have seen.
I never said I did.
In fact I hope you never see that kind of thing.
You did not step forward.

I mearly wonder on what basis you question the people on this here site that have done what you didn´t want to do?
If you want to talk about the media image?
It has done us a great disservice by reporting some and not all.
I for one had preferred the media did not report anything in wartime.
Why? Because the ones that shy away from war are the last people on earth to judge the people who face it.
Either all, from all sides or nothing at all.

I don´t question the merits of your civilian job whatever that may be.
Why do you question the merits of my job that you know nothing about?

//KJ.
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Sure you can give other example, but that's just it. So can I. We can be this a very long time. That's why I don't think we should be looking at exceptions.

Oh I think I understood you quite well. Didn't You just say "You did not step forward". That suggests I should give you respect because you did serve and I didnt? That is what you are suggesting. So Screw you right Back, I wont give you nothing, technically I don't even owe you a thank you because I am an American citizen not a Swedish one. I have never even been there.

And where did I question the merits of your job in the military, or are you just making that up? Seriously I have absolutely no idea to what you are referring to.

Now can we all settle down and act like adults instead of all the stupid name calling?

Ill agree that the media has done a great disservice, especially in my country because now we seem to think being great is measured on military prowess alone, everything else counts for nothing. It explains why our economy is no longer the largest, why we lag behind in new discoveries, and why we cannot build a decent car. All we focus on is the military. North Korea has a similar system, and its not working out there too well neither.

What I object to are these utterly moronic posts saying "You haven't seen the s*** I have seen". That's utter crap, I really want to laugh at people who went to Iraq and act like they really witnessed hell. I grant you it was not a fun experience, I am not saying that it was, nor I am NOT belittling their experience there. I do not want to go to Iraq, I even refused a job opportunity as a IT consultant with the British Army after the invasion ended. I readily admit that Iraq/Afghanistan are a pretty miserable place to go.

But compare the entire Iraq/Afghanistan war to one hour on Omaha Beach, or Tarawa, or Verdun, or Dien Bien Phu or seeing your colleagues at work get arrested by the Gastapo. It makes the situation in Iraq (or any other modern day place) seem very small. And then to further say the world sucks because of it, that person doesn't even know the meaning of the word "suck". If someone thinks the world is really that bad today needs to speak to a Auchswitz survivor. I have done that too.

And I don't have to have seen it myself to believe it. I have talked to enough vets and other people who lived during WWII to know that 9-11, Iraq, Afghanistan, is nothing compared to what happened elsewhere. People really think the world is bad because of Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan really need to read a history book. We have been through MUCH worse. Thats why I take these types of posts with such a grain of salt.

I think our world has problems, but some dank cesspool??? Gimme a break. I travel quite a bit, its not that bad unless you limit yourself to only the nasty areas.
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KJ said:
"The artists are the ones who might be
able to help us with our internal, invisible lives."

Good luck with that.

I read that speech and it has absolutely no bearing on this argument but perhaps your opening statement.
That´s how I see it.

//KJ.
Click to expand...
That's all it was meant for. The fact that the military needs civilians and the civilians need the military. You are no better than I for your service. Just like I am no better than you for my ability to (sometimes) touch people with my music. You don't serve because you're thinking about yourself. You serve because you're thinking about others. The ones who cannot serve...

Well, when I perform or compose, I'm not thinking about myself. I'm thinking about something that inspires me. When I perform a piece, I'm attempting to communicate what the composer was trying to convey. When I compose a piece, it's to share something that cannot be shared otherwise... Read my signature... Gustav Mahler says it best.

As far as the invisible life goes... Trust me, it happens. Just because you haven't experienced it doesn't mean you can't or won't. Music lays bare that which we cannot see.
 
mmarsh said:
KJ said:
Sure you can give other example, but that's just it. So can I. We can be this a very long time. That's why I don't think we should be looking at exceptions.

Well if people hadn´t been stopping these attacs they would have been a part of you day to day life.
You wouldn´t have a chioce where to live to avoid them..

Oh I think I understood you quite well. Didn't You just say "You did not step forward". That suggests I should give you respect because you did serve and I didnt? That is what you are suggesting. So Screw you right Back, I wont give you nothing, technically I don't even owe you a thank you because I am an American citizen not a Swedish one. I have never even been there.

You DIDN`T step forward now did you?
No you are not Swedish, and ofcourse terrorists out to hurt americans are only stopped by american forces..right?
Not hardly, just as terrorists out to hurt other nations citizens are not stopped by american foces...right?
Stop arguing **** you know nothing about.

I personally don´t want your thanks.
Nor does your respect mean alot to me.

And where did I question the merits of your job in the military, or are you just making that up? Seriously I have absolutely no idea to what you are referring to.

Well calling the men that protect you dumb seems like a far stretch, even for someone that is uninformed.

Now can we all settle down and act like adults instead of all the stupid name calling?

Ill agree that the media has done a great disservice, especially in my country because now we seem to think being great is measured on military prowess alone, everything else counts for nothing. It explains why our economy is no longer the largest, why we lag behind in new discoveries, and why we cannot build a decent car. All we focus on is the military. North Korea has a similar system, and its not working out there too well neither.

Well the US military are still on the forefront of research and development.
If the civilian society does not hold up in your opinion that is hardly the military,s fault, now is it?


What I object to are these utterly moronic posts saying "You haven't seen the s*** I have seen". That's utter crap, I really want to laugh at people who went to Iraq and act like they really witnessed hell. I grant you it was not a fun experience, I am not saying that it was, nor I am NOT belittling their experience there. I do not want to go to Iraq, I even refused a job opportunity as a IT consultant with the British Army after the invasion ended. I readily admit that Iraq/Afghanistan are a pretty miserable place to go.

Since you know nothing of the experience, lets not discuss that, ok?

But compare the entire Iraq/Afghanistan war to one hour on Omaha Beach, or Tarawa, or Verdun, or Dien Bien Phu or seeing your colleagues at work get arrested by the Gastapo. It makes the situation in Iraq (or any other modern day place) seem very small. And then to further say the world sucks because of it, that person doesn't even know the meaning of the word "suck". If someone thinks the world is really that bad today needs to speak to a Auchswitz survivor. I have done that too.

So when you have spoken to all these survivors and they have told you the world is a dark place you have listened and trusted them?
Why don´t you trust the military men that today tell you the same thing?
Do you think the world have done a complete 180 and are now filled with flowers and sunshine?
Just over a decade ago military people waded through body parts in massgraves outside the city of Sarajevo.
Have you talked to any survivors from that?
Do you think Dien Bien Phu were worse, if so in what way?

And I don't have to have seen it myself to believe it. I have talked to enough vets and other people who lived during WWII to know that 9-11, Iraq, Afghanistan, is nothing compared to what happened elsewhere. People really think the world is bad because of Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan really need to read a history book. We have been through MUCH worse. Thats why I take these types of posts with such a grain of salt.

Again you don´t know that the soldiers perception at any of those times were any worse, so why do you question the soldiers that tells you the truth as they know it on here?

I think our world has problems, but some dank cesspool??? Gimme a break. I travel quite a bit, its not that bad unless you limit yourself to only the nasty areas.
Ok, and in your opinion, wich are the nasty areas today?
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As I didn´t want to miss anything I answered you questions inside you text..I hope you can sort it out.

//KJ.
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I think the talk has gotten a bit too complicated.

Basically it's down to this, if the military and the police all took a hike for about a month, odds are your chances of being exposed to those bad things that have less chance of happening to you than a lightning strike will suddenly skyrocket and become an every day fact of life.
In the process of serving, a lot of our folks even in the best conditions lead very broken lives. But someone has to do it. I've not seen many people go crazy in a normal work place but I've seen people in the military actually go crazy over time.
Let's not push this service thing too hard on our civlian members. Their lives went off in a different direction and in way I'm glad they don't have to deal with a lot of the things that we had/have to.

Comparing any conflict is difficult because for the grunt, the potential for death is behind every corner, behind every rock, on a tree branch and if it gets you, it doesn't matter if 40 people died or if 4000 people died, if you are one of them, you're gone just the same.
 
the_13th_redneck said:
I think the talk has gotten a bit too complicated.

Basically it's down to this, if the military and the police all took a hike for about a month, odds are your chances of being exposed to those bad things that have less chance of happening to you than a lightning strike will suddenly skyrocket and become an every day fact of life.
In the process of serving, a lot of our folks even in the best conditions lead very broken lives. But someone has to do it. I've not seen many people go crazy in a normal work place but I've seen people in the military actually go crazy over time.
Let's not push this service thing too hard on our civlian members. Their lives went off in a different direction and in way I'm glad they don't have to deal with a lot of the things that we had/have to.

Comparing any conflict is difficult because for the grunt, the potential for death is behind every corner, behind every rock, on a tree branch and if it gets you, it doesn't matter if 40 people died or if 4000 people died, if you are one of them, you're gone just the same.
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I think you are completely overlooking the somewhat symbiotic nature that exists here, without "civilians" all those venerable institutions (such as the Police, Fire Departments, Military) get a different title called "Out of business" and without the structured and stable society that that these institutions help maintain it becomes impossible for "civilians" to do the business that pay taxes.

Seriously folks do we 8 pages of condescending crap to figure this out?
 
Actually we wouldn't go out of business.
We'd reorganize and we'd still be around.
Source of income would be private protection, piracy/looting, hunting/gathering and farming.
In fact, in that kind of world, we'd be Kings.
 
the_13th_redneck said:
Actually we wouldn't go out of business.
We'd reorganize and we'd still be around.
Source of income would be private protection, piracy/looting, hunting/gathering and farming.
In fact, in that kind of world, we'd be Kings.
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I think you are now deluding yourself especially if you believe that.

You just have to look at every failed state in the world to see how well your scenario has worked.

The simple reality is institutions can not survive without money, fail to pay the police or military for a month or two and see how well its discipline and cohesion stand up.
In the end it boils down to a mutual relationship of dependency.
 
MontyB said:
I think you are now deluding yourself especially if you believe that.

You just have to look at every failed state in the world to see how well your scenario has worked.
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My argument is that we'd be a failed state, but we'd still be around and we'd be better off than most other folks.
Look at every failed state. The guys with the guns are in charge.


To live in a normal society, I don't disagree with you the slightest bit.
 
Umm even in failed states it is the guy with money that pulls the strings and that is rarely the guy with the gun.
 
MontyB said:
Umm even in failed states it is the guy with money that pulls the strings and that is rarely the guy with the gun.
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Works either way.
Generals often take charge and end up becoming the money man.
If all the money people always had it their way, then Cuba would not be a Communist country today, Mao Tze Tung would have never conquered China, General Park Jung-hee would have never been able to mount his Coup d'Etat etc. and the Taliban would have never been in charge of Afghanistan.
 
Ok going to try and steer this tread back to the topic.

For those still not convinced that Iraq was fought for oil (fully or partially) I will compile the list of excuses given by the Bush Administration:

1. WMD. Well I think we know how this one turned out. And the evidence now seems to point to a deliberate attempt to mislead the public about the WMD danger rather than a CIA mistake. I say this citing the Niger Yellow cake scandle, the Downing Street memos, and testimony from people like Alan Greenspan and Scott McClellen who said that it was for oil.

2. That Saddam was involved in 9-11 or had connections to al-Qaeda. Boy the Administration really tried hard to make this stick. But once again no concrete evidence was every found supporting this, there was evidence that supported the fact that Saddam had tried to kill Bin-Laden and that he had purged Iraq of all bin laden followers.

3. That Saddam was a bad guy. As I said before, Saddam was a bad guy, but he was hardly the worst. Saddam mostly kept his crap to his borders, that much more than I can say for his next door neighbor Iran. In in terms of being "bad" Myanmar and Zimbabwe rank higher than Saddam. So why did we pick Saddam out of all the monsters in the world? And who appointed the US "World Cop" anyway?

One final point, people think that high gas prices meant that oil was not the reason for Iraq. But the control of Iraqs oil had nothing to do with oil price, it had to do with controlling oil supply. It was about oil politics not the cost of oil.
 
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