WWII's Top Mistakes-USSR

[boris116]

I did say that some units did prepare themselves, and these may be the fortifications to which you are referring. But I know that I am correct in stating that the vast majority of the Soviet Army was completely unprepared for Barbarossa. One of the Soviet Army's great strengths has been it's engineers. they have always been good, and I am sure that they realized that the frotifications facing Poland were next to useless. So I am also sure they decided to replace a lot of them... when Stalin allowed it. How many were replaced? Not a whole lot..

I agree, the troops have been uprepared for the defence. But this readiness is completely different from the preparedness for the attack.
The troops getting ready for the attack are the most vulnerable. The Germans got the taste of it when they were about to attack at Kursk...
Fortifications. The problem here was that the old ones were built about 200-300 kilometers from the new border and could have been used until the the new ones were built(without causing an ire of Germans). But they were dismantled right away. The easiest explanation is stupidity. But could be another...
There were also a lot of fortifications left from the WWI - and in very good shape. They were blown up only after the war - the authorities didn't want to leave them as a refuge for the guerillas and the common criminals. We were using their walls for climbing. I have even built a summer home right next to one of those forts:-D . A very few of the forts on the old border that were not dismantled yet (near Mogilyov) have kept the Germans for days(so they were not obsolete, after all!)


I was referring to the GRU chap whom you quoted earlier on in this thread.

Have you read his book "the Icebreaker"? I have not seen it in English. Or just the critique of this book?
One could agree or disagree with his interpretation of history, however, there are a lot of mute points in the official version.
One of the higlights - he produces excerpts from the military directives(without saying whose directive it was) and asks the reader to guess. He does it to prove his point - both sides before June 22nd where issuing almost identical orders!

Just out of curiosity Boris, Where in Russia are you from?

I was born in Ukraine, but have moved a lot around USSR. The last 13 years I have lived in Western Belorussia(the same place we are talking about in this thread!). The very place where Napoleon had crossed the Neman River to invade Russia in 1812 was just couple of miles from my home!

 

[Obvious]

The Purges were the dumbests things Stalin has done. One of the reasosn why Hitler attacked that the time.

 

[5.56X45mm]

Yup, that was done by the NKVD. The grandfather of the KGB.

 

[Josh678]

Believeing Hitler woudn't attack and not attacking Japan until a few days before the Wars end.Also thinking they could capture Hitler.:biggun:

 

[Supostat]

What were the Soviets top mistakes.

1. Winter War with Finland. Neutral of friendly Finns could be much better as Finns as enemies. If not more, than lack of front in border with Finland provide opportunity to free a bunch of divisions, which could be used against Germans in West.

2. Wrong organization of armored forces - the practice of war showed that there is no need for large armored corps with thousands of tanks. Tank brigades or divisions were more efficient. At the same point - in Soviet tank division of 1941 was too much tanks and too less infantry. Germans had better organization of tank divisions and perform much better.

3. Existence of political officers in units with rights, equal with rights of CO. Not always, but for some situations political officer's point of view was not right from point of view of military theory and practice, although unit must act `politically correctly`. Actually, Stalin's order from November of 1942, which strictly limited rights of political officers, was not just for fun - I am sure it has a reasonable basis (mistakes in previous battles, made by influence of `politically`, not military, correctly decisions).

 

[perseus]

Supostat

What do you think about the purges of the experienced military leaders by Stalin prior to WW2, where these not even more important?

What about the Soviet armies dispositions on the eve of war. Did these unpreparedness hinder them, or actually help them, since many were well behind the front line and couldn't be immediately surrounded?

Did the winter war with Finland allow the Soviets to gain experience on 'how not to do things' and prepared them for the much greater battle ahead?

 

[Supostat]

Supostat

What do you think about the purges of the experienced military leaders by Stalin prior to WW2, where these not even more important?

Controversary, purges had both positive and negative effects. Some Revolution-time stagnates in fact should be removed from their seats (and from military point of view there is no much difference were their shot or just retired), while due to purges also some talented commanders (for example Rokossovsky) were arrested and released only after beginning of the war.

What about the Soviet armies dispositions on the eve of war. Did these unpreparedness hinder them, or actually help them, since many were well behind the front line and couldn't be immediately surrounded?

Unpreparedness hinder them, because density of troops in first line was much too low for successful defense. Therefore Germans with such density of troops, as they were on June 22, 1941, could not be stopped.
Here are some maps with densities of troops:
http://army.armor.kiev.ua/hist/oborona-b-1.jpg
http://army.armor.kiev.ua/hist/oborona-c-2.jpg
There are more than 3 German corps vs. 1 Soviet Corps in directions of main offensives.

But this is not a mistake, since Soviets had no stable reason to concentrate troops more earlier. Concentrate troops just for fun, without political reason - it is expensive and diplomatically dangerous move.

Did the winter war with Finland allow the Soviets to gain experience on 'how not to do things' and prepared them for the much greater battle ahead?

No. Halkin-Gol and Lake Hasan did it, where large mechanized and air armies were involved (which was way what WW2 was). Winter war was too specific, it was closer to anti-guerilla warfare than conventional, symmetric combat.

 

[Kunikov]

Suvorov's AKA Rezune's ideas have no basis in reality, his mistakes are infamous and there are still those, sadly, who refuse to believe that he only misquotes, misinterprets, and lies about what happened in 1941.

As for the topic of this thread, the biggest mistake the Soviet Union made was not mobilizing before the German invasion, but that couldn't be helped. The purges were detrimental to the Red Army but most have exacerbated their affects, in fact around 17,000 were either imprisoned, sent to camps, or executed.

 

[Kunikov]

Is that true if the russian soldiers are retreating back to line and russian soldiers on the line will shoot russian soldiers if they are retreating? I'm just curious.

This only happened when soldiers retreated without orders and then it wasn't a rule, many times soldiers would simply be stopped and returned to their units.

 

[Kunikov]

2. Wrong organization of armored forces - the practice of war showed that there is no need for large armored corps with thousands of tanks. Tank brigades or divisions were more efficient. At the same point - in Soviet tank division of 1941 was too much tanks and too less infantry. Germans had better organization of tank divisions and perform much better.

Soviet Mech Corps circa 1941 did not have 'thousands of tanks' within their ranks, in fact they had a bit over 1,000. This is comparable to a German Panzer Corps. Also, most of the Mech Corps in 1941 were not at full strength.

 

[Josh678]

I will say this they needed to devlop better unit strategies then just throwing troops at the Germans.I think they would've saved a lot more men that way.

 

[Kunikov]

I will say this they needed to devlop better unit strategies then just throwing troops at the Germans.I think they would've saved a lot more men that way.

Can you give some examples when Red Army men were 'thrown' at the Germans?

 

[Josh678]

During the battle for Stalingrad Infantry was thrown at the German Lines.

 

[Kunikov]

During the battle for Stalingrad Infantry was thrown at the German Lines.

Can you quote an actual action where this happened, or is "Enemy At the Gates" your source for this?

 

[LeEnfield]

There biggest mistake was not listing to the people that told them that the Germans planned to attack them. They even had the date of the attack and took no precautions whats so ever

 

[Kunikov]

There biggest mistake was not listing to the people that told them that the Germans planned to attack them. They even had the date of the attack and took no precautions whats so ever

1) There were sources who said Germany wouldn't attack.
2) Most of the sources that said Germany would attack were treated as disinformation, and to a large degree this was correct, since what they were reporting usually turned out to be wrong.
3) Who reported the 'date of the attack'?

 

[Josh678]

I think Stalin was stupid to think Hittler wouldn't attack him after all look at what had happened to Britian after they had made a deal with Hittler.:hide:

 

[godofthunder9010]

Can you quote an actual action where this happened, or is "Enemy At the Gates" your source for this?

Battle of Berlin for one. Yeah, yeah, I'm looking for a source. But it is the opinion of many historians that the Red Army, in an effort to rush their assault on Berlin, took substantially more casualties than necessary. Working on finding a source for you. For one, I've not yet unpacked my library from the last move.
:sorry:
Enemy at the gates is laughable ... for the most part. Entertaining historical fiction.

1) There were sources who said Germany wouldn't attack.
2) Most of the sources that said Germany would attack were treated as disinformation, and to a large degree this was correct, since what they were reporting usually turned out to be wrong.
3) Who reported the 'date of the attack'?

Can't help you on the third one, but as to the other two:
1.) What sources? What evidence did they provide Stalin to prove their point?
2.) Had anyone actually READ Mein Kamf?? Had any intelligence reported ANYTHING about Hitler? Surely they must have known that the foundational ideology that Hitler rode to power on was the demonization of Jews and Communists. He repeatedly refered to them as one and the same. "Judeao-Bolshevism" and the like. How could the Soviet Union NOT expect an attack?

But you'd have to have been a complete twit to ignore reports of German troops massing at the border ... coming from people at or near the German/Soviet border. Consider this: The 1941 German invasion of the Soviet Union was the largest scale invasion in human history. How in the world can you miss something that enormous coming your way?

I will forever be puzzled by the apparent total trust that Stalin place in Hitler. Stalin, by his very nature, was NOT a trusting man. That is how he survived. That is how he managed to never be overthrown. That is how he came to power to begin with. By distrusting everyone and everything, and having the best and most information available on all and any threats to him. But somehow, Stalin got blindsided by Hitler. I'd love to know how that works.

 

[Kunikov]

I think Stalin was stupid to think Hittler wouldn't attack him after all look at what had happened to Britian after they had made a deal with Hittler.:hide:

Did Hitler invade England? Why is Stalin 'stupid' for thinking that Hitler would first destroy England before turning to the East?

 

[Kunikov]

Battle of Berlin for one. Yeah, yeah, I'm looking for a source. But it is the opinion of many historians that the Red Army, in an effort to rush their assault on Berlin, took substantially more casualties than necessary.

Do you know how many casualties the Red Army took compared to how many they inflicted?

Can't help you on the third one, but as to the other two:
1.) What sources? What evidence did they provide Stalin to prove their point?

Stalin, GRU, and the NKVD received reports from Berlin, Tokyo, Helsinki, Zurich, Paris, Belgrade, Budapest, and a number of other locations. Intelligence sources have various sources of their own, I'm not about to write a book for you. See Murphy's "What Stalin Knew: The Enigma of Barbarossa" for a look at some of what Stalin was receiving, although picked information and a lot is left out.

2.) Had anyone actually READ Mein Kamf?? Had any intelligence reported ANYTHING about Hitler? Surely they must have known that the foundational ideology that Hitler rode to power on was the demonization of Jews and Communists. He repeatedly refered to them as one and the same. "Judeao-Bolshevism" and the like. How could the Soviet Union NOT expect an attack?

"Expecting" an attack and knowing when to mobilize an entire nation for an attack which one knows will definitely occur are two separate issues. The Red Army was growing in size for a reason.

But you'd have to have been a complete twit to ignore reports of German troops massing at the border ... coming from people at or near the German/Soviet border. Consider this: The 1941 German invasion of the Soviet Union was the largest scale invasion in human history. How in the world can you miss something that enormous coming your way?

An invasion that failed. If Hitler wanted to conquer the Soviet Union he should have used a lot more troops, at least adhering to the usual 3:1 ratio. Secondly, Stalin had reason to believe the massing of troops on the Soviet border would be part of Hitler's attempt to get concessions out of the Soviet Union.

I will forever be puzzled by the apparent total trust that Stalin place in Hitler. Stalin, by his very nature, was NOT a trusting man. That is how he survived. That is how he managed to never be overthrown. That is how he came to power to begin with. By distrusting everyone and everything, and having the best and most information available on all and any threats to him. But somehow, Stalin got blindsided by Hitler. I'd love to know how that works.

Stalin apparently picks and chooses who to trust and not trust, the same goes for the sources coming in with regards to Hitler planning an attack. Furthermore, those giving Stalin information did not always give him ALL the information. You need to move away from the notion that Stalin knew and saw all as well as gave all the orders.