Would Hitler Have Succeded if...

[rovai]

Actually, Hitler's attack on USSR wasn't a mistake, but a necessity. You see, USSR had plans on attacking germany somewhere in June. Actually, Stalin was one of the most briliant strategists ever, and his plan almost suceeded, if only Hitler wasn't crazy enough to attack him in June( Stalin knew that war on 2 fronts is a suicide for germany).

Molotov-Ribbentrop pact was one of the parts of this plan. There were two parts in this plan, one is the public one about friendship between Germany and USSR blah,blah,blah. The second one is the secret part, the plan for an assault on Poland, and division of it between Germany and USSR. That way, USSR had now a border with Reich(before that, the only way he could reach Germany was by attacking Poland first, which meant war with Brits and France).

In June 1941, all was ready for the attack, both the "Barbarosa" and the USSR assault. Stalin knew about German troops concentrating near the border, but he was thinking logically, and by logic, attack on USSR while fighting with Britain=suicide. So, Staling ordered to prepare for an attack, not for defence. Most of Soviet air force and armored corps were located near the border, and thus were reacheable for German aviation.And when Hitler attacked, this was a catastrophe for Stalin.

In the end Hitler lost, and if he hadn't attaced Russia first, his end would have been much faster(soviets had 5 times more tanks and 2 times more aviation ready to attack, an if they had attacked, it would have been a major defeat for gemans). But then, all of Europe(and maybe the world) would be communist.

 

[Doppleganger]

Actually, Hitler's attack on USSR wasn't a mistake, but a necessity. You see, USSR had plans on attacking germany somewhere in June. Actually, Stalin was one of the most briliant strategists ever, and his plan almost suceeded, if only Hitler wasn't crazy enough to attack him in June( Stalin knew that war on 2 fronts is a suicide for germany).

I had not heard this before. In fact, it's my understanding that Stalin was quite happy with the 'Pact of Steel' and had NO intentions of attacking Nazi Germany in June 1941. Do you have any links to material to support this claim? It would help if they were in English

Stalin was ruthless and ruled the Soviet Union with an iron hand. His sheer will was a big part in why the Soviets survived as a nation at the end of 1941 and indeed why they survived Barbarossa at all.

However, you're having a laugh if you're calling him one of the most brilliant strategists ever. You are having a laugh, right? I hope you are.

Molotov-Ribbentrop pact was one of the parts of this plan. There were two parts in this plan, one is the public one about friendship between Germany and USSR blah,blah,blah. The second one is the secret part, the plan for an assault on Poland, and division of it between Germany and USSR. That way, USSR had now a border with Reich(before that, the only way he could reach Germany was by attacking Poland first, which meant war with Brits and France).

The USSR had designs on the Balkan States, Romania, Bulgaria and Poland, which they saw as 'buffer states'. Moreover, Stalin's wish was to unite all the Slavic peoples under one nation. Again, I would be interested to see some information to support the theory of a pre-emptive Soviet attack on Germany as it's not something I was aware of.

In June 1941, all was ready for the attack, both the "Barbarosa" and the USSR assault. Stalin knew about German troops concentrating near the border, but he was thinking logically, and by logic, attack on USSR while fighting with Britain=suicide. So, Staling ordered to prepare for an attack, not for defence. Most of Soviet air force and armored corps were located near the border, and thus were reacheable for German aviation.And when Hitler attacked, this was a catastrophe for Stalin.

I'm sorry but this is complete rubbish. There is abundant documentation and literature to support the fact that the Soviet forces were caught completely unawares by Operation Barborossa. Well, that isn't quite true as Stalin was told by the famous spy Richard Sorge that Hitler intended to attack his country. Stalin was worried that this was part of a plot to try and get him to attack Germany first and so he had Sorge executed as a traitor.

In the end Hitler lost, and if he hadn't attaced Russia first, his end would have been much faster(soviets had 5 times more tanks and 2 times more aviation ready to attack, an if they had attacked, it would have been a major defeat for gemans). But then, all of Europe(and maybe the world) would be communist.

Rubbish. :roll:

The 1930's Stalinist purges of the Red Army's senior officers (for political reasons), had left the 1941 Red Army desperately short of capable, experienced battlefield commanders. The Red Army's tank force in 1941 was the largest and most capable in the world, but they did not have the necessary skill or expertise to expliot them properly. They also had a large airforce as you pointed out, but again this airforce was parked at their home airfields and not in anyway dispersed or camoflauged. Moreover, their pilots did not have the combat or combined arms experience of the Luftwaffe and many of their planes were aging designs.

Although the Red Army was the largest standing army in Europe, it had to defend a huge border and its forces was spread out thinly in a vain attempt to do this. This left numerous weak gaps all along their front line that were ripe for the German Panzers of Guderian and Hoth to punch through, which they did and then some.

It's true that had Stalin allowed his forces to be ready for a German attack, the initial stages of Barbarossa would have been a lot tougher. However, the Red Army were still at that time stuck in using WW1 tactics and Blitzkrieg would have still have been decisive. Germany lost the war with the Soviet Union due to some bad mistakes by Hitler, and not because Stalin was some great strategist, which is laughable.

Rovai, I suggest you actually read up some and learn some history before posting next time.

 

[Mark Conley]

im a little concerned here:

this was the quotes that concerned me:

I'm sorry but this is complete rubbish. There is abundant documentation and literature to support the fact that the Soviet forces were caught completely unawares by Operation Barborossa. Well, that isn't quite true as Stalin was told by the famous spy Richard Sorge that Hitler intended to attack his country. Stalin was worried that this was part of a plot to try and get him to attack Germany first and so he had Sorge executed as a traitor.

what the encyclopedia britanica said:

Sorge supplied Soviets with information about Anti-Comintern Pact, the German-Japanese Pact and warning of Pearl Harbor attack. In 1941 Sorge informed them of Hitler's intentions to launch Operation Barbarossa. Moscow answered with thanks but little was done.

Before the battle for Moscow, Sorge transmitted information that Japan was not going to attack Soviet Union in the East. This information allowed Georgy Zhukov to redeploy Siberian troops for the defense of Moscow.

Japanese secret service had already intercepted many of his messages and begun to close in. Ozaki was arrested in October 14 and interrogated. Sorge was arrested in October 18 in Tokyo. Sorge was not exchanged for Japanese prisoners of war, although reason for that is unclear. He was incarcerated in Sugamo Prison.

Both Ozaki and Sorge were hanged on November 7, 1944. The Soviet Union did not acknowledge Sorge until 1964

This would indicate that Sorge was executed by the Japaneese for spying, and not by Stalin. Unless of course, You meant that by witholding his acknowlegement that Sorge was really a russian, that caused this mans death.


nice posting though.

 

[Doppleganger]

This would indicate that Sorge was executed by the Japaneese for spying, and not by Stalin. Unless of course, You meant that by witholding his acknowlegement that Sorge was really a russian, that caused this mans death.


nice posting though.

I thought Sorge was executed by Stalin so thanks for correcting me. Anyway, my point was to say that Stalin had ample warning of Barbarossa but ignored it, because he was sure that traitors were trying to wreck his good (in his eyes) relationship with Hitler.

 

[Marksman]

Stalins words"its quantity not quality that matters"tell every single thing about his military skills

 

[Damien435]

The problem in the USSR was that Hitler ordered the most advanced units to stop, turn around, and round up 300,000 defeated Russian soldiers, this cause a delay in the advance on Moscow and most likely ended up costing Germany the war, or just made it last longer, I firmly believe that the US and Britain alone could have defeated Germany, since Germany's only threat to the US was their navy, and Russia did not have much of a Navy after the Russo-Japano war, so Russia was not helping much, the US handled Japan while helping Britain with Germany, so even if Germany had conquered Russia they did not have a practical way to invade Britain since Britain had established air superiority and their navy was no match for the Royal Navy and the US Navy.

 

[Damien435]

Actually, Hitler's attack on USSR wasn't a mistake, but a necessity. You see, USSR had plans on attacking germany somewhere in June. Actually, Stalin was one of the most briliant strategists ever, and his plan almost suceeded, if only Hitler wasn't crazy enough to attack him in June( Stalin knew that war on 2 fronts is a suicide for germany).

If Stalin was going to invade in June, shouldn't they have also had a huge army along the border? If the Soviets had their army ready they would have thrown the Germans back out on their arses, easily, 1.5 million German troops to 10 million Russian troops, I know who I would have sided with.

 

[Uncle_Sam]

We can thank hitler's madness in tactics, we're FREE, what's else there to say. Not all Germans were nazis, Hitler got into power not very much by help of the German people. I think on first elections before he was in the nick he won 13,5% of the votes, and those are not all of the Germans! But from the mid 1930s many people gone nazis(aka Crazy).
Hitlers grandfather was half jew, I think he didn't like his grandpa much! It wouldn't happen if there wasn't that bloody Wagner, he was the creator of the nazi ideology, and Hitler was a big fan of his!
And it's all fault of the WWI.

 

[soldierzhonor]

There are alot of "what if's" during WW2. What if Hitler had deployed his panzer reserves to the DDay landings. I have thought about the fact that if he hadnt invaded Russia and Russia stuck by the non aggression pact, like they showed they could have since they didnt attack Japan, would it have turned out different at Normandy or would it have just taken longer to end the war. Thats an iffy right there because if they didnt invade Russia, they'd have armies extra to send into the fight. But if the Russians didnt get the equipment the allies sent it during the war, that could have been used in the fighting also. The drawback would be the number of troops to send against the Germans and the Germans not being so sparsely spread out and weaker. It would have opened a whole new can of worms during the Italy landings. That and the fact that if say the UK did fall to the Reich, the US would be isolated on both sides and be pretty much surrounded. Then it'd be a matter of time before we were hit here. Thats just my opinion though and my conclusion is this... <shrug> iono!

 

[1217]

We can thank hitler's madness in tactics, we're FREE, what's else there to say. Not all Germans were nazis, Hitler got into power not very much by help of the German people. I think on first elections before he was in the nick he won 13,5% of the votes, and those are not all of the Germans! But from the mid 1930s many people gone nazis(aka Crazy).
Hitlers grandfather was half jew, I think he didn't like his grandpa much! It wouldn't happen if there wasn't that bloody Wagner, he was the creator of the nazi ideology, and Hitler was a big fan of his!
And it's all fault of the WWI.

That's not even close to being true. There's rumor that his grandmother was Jewish, but there's no proof of that. Voting for Hitler in 1933 didn't make make anyone a Nazi as we know them, people back then couldn't have known what Adolf was going to do.
Last wednesday I attended a ceremonie which involved survivors of WWII, and I don't think they agree with you on thanking Hitler's madness in anything....

 

[Gunner13]

Voting for Hitler in 1933 didn't make make anyone a Nazi as we know them, people back then couldn't have known what Adolf was going to do.

I disagree :evil: ! All you had to do was read Mein Kampf (I have and it was not easy to do), as his whole plan is pretty much there in black and white. No interpretation or decoding is needed, so the average German should have know what Hitler intended right from the start.

1 million Germans voted against him, so it is very right to say that not all Germans, or German Soldiers, were Nazis by any stretch. However, the characterization of Hitler, the Nazis and the Nazi Party as evil is 100% correct and we are well rid of all of them. The same things goes for Joseph Stalin and his bunch of murderous thugs.

 

[VEK]

i got jailed for 3 months for assaulting a well-known Nazi around my area.....when i was in the slammer, the inmates were treating me like a saint, giving me stuff and trying to be my friend, etc, mainly because the guy is a known paedophile as well. now i wish i'd given him some GBH... :cen: :rambo:

 

[Mark Conley]

well...in my book, there really isnt anything wrong with assaulting a self proclaimed NAZI...your only problem was that you did it obviously in front of witnesses...

1. Dont do that anymore.

2. Strange how them guys that join that type of organization seem to have a little screw loose in some area...pedaphile...racist...hatemonger...backyard sadist..ect. I think the Devil knows his children..and pied pipers them to him. Must be that black uniform.

 

[VEK]

it's alright, he got 4 years, because he taunted me about my serb grandfather and how his "forefathers" should have finished my grampa off. i had to be restrained by 5 men in a pub. :evil: i hope he DIES.

 

[Mark Conley]

well lets see...

a person that is a nazi and a pedophile in prison ...well when they let him out of protective custody...let us know.


Personally, thats not a downside. the prison population will adjust for the empty seat at the table...

 

[Doppleganger]

The problem in the USSR was that Hitler ordered the most advanced units to stop, turn around, and round up 300,000 defeated Russian soldiers, this cause a delay in the advance on Moscow and most likely ended up costing Germany the war, or just made it last longer, I firmly believe that the US and Britain alone could have defeated Germany, since Germany's only threat to the US was their navy, and Russia did not have much of a Navy after the Russo-Japano war, so Russia was not helping much, the US handled Japan while helping Britain with Germany, so even if Germany had conquered Russia they did not have a practical way to invade Britain since Britain had established air superiority and their navy was no match for the Royal Navy and the US Navy.

Heya Damien435. What you described was Hitler's delay of Operation Typhoon (the drive on Moscow) to first secure the Ukraine and it's capital Kiev. It delayed the Moscow offensive by nearly 6 weeks and so yeah, it had a big impact. However, there's a school of thought that Hitler was at least partially justified in what he did. Had Hitler not taken Kiew and the Ukraine, there was a danger that Army Group Centre would have been outflanked on it's right by those same Kiev forces, which numbered well over half a million men. Whether that would have happened or not who can say.

Also, the RAF only gained air superiority in the Battle of Britain because the Luftwaffe allowed them to. It's common knowledge that the RAF was almost at breaking point when Hitler made the decision to switch to bombing civilian targets. Had Germany defated Russia, their greater industrial might and technology would have seen them gain the upper hand against the UK and invasion would just have been a matter of time.

There isn't any way the UK and US could have defeated Germany by themselves, least not in the short term. And if Germany had occupied the UK bang goes the UK 'aircraft carrier' strategy. It would have been very difficult for the US to launch any kind of amphibious assault of mainland Europe ala D-Day.

Regards.

 

[1217]

Voting for Hitler in 1933 didn't make make anyone a Nazi as we know them, people back then couldn't have known what Adolf was going to do.

I disagree :evil: ! All you had to do was read Mein Kampf (I have and it was not easy to do), as his whole plan is pretty much there in black and white. No interpretation or decoding is needed, so the average German should have know what Hitler intended right from the start.

Not everyone had read it, and you can't hold that against them. In retrospect it's easy to say they should have known, but it just isn't that easy in real life.

 

[Gunner13]

I must disagree again here - this goes to checking out the guy your are voting for and knowing who, or what, you are putting into power. Real life participation in a democracy, as well as common sense, demands this.

 

[Rotty261]

Although I suppose back then it might have been possible for an individual to fool the public about their intentions upon taking office. No way that could happen today, some magazine or something would have Hitlers friends squeeling like pigs for some amount of money, if he were running for office now.

But I still think that most Germans that voted for Hitler had to have some kind of idea of his past, or did his past not ever show any wrong doing. :?: I for one do not know, I have not spent much time studying Hitler or his time before or after taking office.

But to the original question, I think Hitler failed by trying to run a war on two different fronts and spread his resources to thin. I don't think the targets that were being bombed were even a factor in the loss....

 

[Damien435]

And if Germany had occupied the UK bang goes the UK 'aircraft carrier' strategy. It would have been very difficult for the US to launch any kind of amphibious assault of mainland Europe ala D-Day.

Who says the US would have invaded? I really don't think the US would have bothered with Germany anymore if they had conquered Russia and the UK. We really did not want anything to do with Germany, ok, some Americans, most notably Roosevelt, wanted to get in on the allies side as soon as possible but without Germany declaring war to the US first I don't know that we really would have been able to go to war with Germany, it would have been political suicide for Roosevelt. Luckily Germany turned back to capture Kiev and 300,000 Russian soldiers. And don't forget, Stalin had purged the Soviet Union of many of it best scientist and generals, whether anyone would have seen the weakness in the German attack or not is unknown, but whatever, Hitler lost, thank god, and we now can only ponder as to what would have happened if he had won.