Originally Posted by Alexin_Cobra

I've seen them, I accidently met alot of friends that are in the PRC Army during my yearly visit, since the kungfu school I attend is right outside some army barracks. They have way mor than one type of tanks. They range from T-52s through T-90 They no longer buy weapons from Russia, they rather build their own versions. The later versions T-72 and up are refitted in China. They even try to mimic M1 Abrums style turrets on the new type 90's in CN

You do not have clue on what you are talking about inregards to Chinese tank building capability.

Originally Posted by Rorke

There is still a significant difference between appearance and actuall level of effectivness.

The best that China has atm is an upgunned T-72 version, they gave it a pimp new turret which still has relatively weak protection, the only real change is the indigenous gun which has superior stabilization to the notorious russian versions, at current time China has nothing even close to a modern MBT.

Also they base 90% of their tech on Russia because US and Europe refuses to sell them for obvious reasons so whatever they do get is purchased through private parties, spied out or retro-engineered.

That is totally a false statement, China uses alot of western technology in their tank building capability.

Originally Posted by the_13th_redneck

No when it comes to advanced materials and tech that is essential for this sort of stuff, the Chinese don't have it. Believe me, I don't live too far away from the whole metal industry and I can tell you the Chinese can produce simple things at very low prices but as far as the advanced things come, they can't touch it yet.

And who is gobbling up all the raw materials that it can get its hands on, that is pure speculation on your part.

Originally Posted by Alexin_Cobra

Google doesn't tell you everything. There is alot of classified information about the US's M1A2s and Bradelys that I know are not posted on the interenet.(thank God) So, if the US is secretive about some specs of vehicles then I know China is very secretive about its own specs. But I know you want to discredit them in everything so why don't you or anyone want to start a war with China? It would be a way to prove your point.

Jesus Christ man, if Russians say "we sold the fulcrum package to China" and than China gets a shiny new fighter than that means that they use MIG-29 technology.

IF Russia sells the People's Army several of their T-72s of various modernisations and then China presents a new tank it means their new tanks is BASED on T-72.

China can be secretive all it wants but hardcore facts are that most of their equipment is bought from Russia and in Russia that same equipment is already outdated, China has around 300-400 tanks that are equivalent to T-72, they have about 120-150 relatively modern MIG based aircraft and That. Is. It.

There is nothing to discredit, Chinese army operates on trash, they have tanks using technology from the 60s.

2500 type 96 which are typically T-72 equivalents with some slap on addons.

200 type 99 which are T-72 1M equivalents since they've been building on the old T-64/72 designs.

There's also around 6000 tanks of various older types which are simply not worth mentioning since they're ancient variants of T-55 and the like.

All of their IFVs are copies of soviet equipment, older ones, if not for nuclear weapons China would be defenceless against Russia or US.

Originally Posted by SHERMAN

I think you are going a bit far. First of all, I donwt have any need to discredit them. Saying that my country sold China weapon systems certinly isent helping me. However, the rumores were and still are that china used alot of israeli and russian tch o that plane.

As for starting a war with China, they are an idustrial powerhouse, have unlimited manpower, and they make OK weapons for them selves. 5000 OK tanks can beat 1000 exellent tanks. I would not like to put my Merkava MK2b against 5 T-62s, even though I think that my tank is vastly better.

Israel is not only assisting China but alot of other countries also, there is nothing wrong with this. India turned to Israel when they were having FCS overheating issues on the T-90S, they are currently in the running for a new ERA package for Indian BMP 2 series vehicles, they are also willing to assist with KE projectile technology, oh my, I could go on for hours.

Originally Posted by Pale Rider

And who is gobbling up all the raw materials that it can get its hands on, that is pure speculation on your part.

No its not, China didnt 'have' advanced scientific base & industry untill late, comrade Mao made sure of that, one of the reasons they have such military is because 90% of science needs to be bought rather than developed.

Heck even Poland has access to superior technologies and materials.

Originally Posted by Rorke

Jesus Christ man, if Russians say "we sold the fulcrum package to China" and than China gets a shiny new fighter than that means that they use MIG-29 technology.

IF Russia sells the People's Army several of their T-72s of various modernisations and then China presents a new tank it means their new tanks is BASED on T-72.

China can be secretive all it wants but hardcore facts are that most of their equipment is bought from Russia and in Russia that same equipment is already outdated, China has around 300-400 tanks that are equivalent to T-72, they have about 120-150 relatively modern MIG based aircraft and That. Is. It.

There is nothing to discredit, Chinese army operates on trash, they have tanks using technology from the 60s.

2500 type 96 which are typically T-72 equivalents with some slap on addons.

200 type 99 which are T-72 1M equivalents since they've been building on the old T-64/72 designs.

There's also around 6000 tanks of various older types which are simply not worth mentioning since they're ancient variants of T-55 and the like.

All of their IFVs are copies of soviet equipment, older ones, if not for nuclear weapons China would be defenceless against Russia or US.

A type 98 or 99 is not even close to being a Russian T-72, do you even realize which Eastern country has more influence on Chinese tank design versus Russia.

Originally Posted by Rorke

No its not, China didnt 'have' advanced scientific base & industry untill late, comrade Mao made sure of that, one of the reasons they have such military is because 90% of science needs to be bought rather than developed.

Heck even Poland has access to superior technologies and materials.

What the hell does Comrade MAO have to do with Chinese tank capability, they do not need to come up with their own technologies, they can buy it and set up facilities inside of their own country, which country these days do not do this, including the Russians and the U.S.

Originally Posted by Pale Rider

A type 98 or 99 is not even close to being a Russian T-72, do you even realize which Eastern country has more influence on Chinese tank design versus Russia.

Type 99 is a further development of type 98 which has many features of T-72 and T-80, the difference is superior electronic, additional armor slated in the Leo2 fashion and adding an autoloader and automatic transmission, there's also improved gun stabilization and thermal optics, Russians are pissed off because China apparently even copied their ARENA on it ( though apparently something was added ).

But enlighten me which countries tanks influenced them more than the ones they have 90% of their technology and experience from ( russian ones ).

Originally Posted by Pale Rider

What the hell does Comrade MAO have to do with Chinese tank capability, they do not need to come up with their own technologies, they can buy it and set up facilities inside of their own country, which country these days do not do this, including the Russians and the U.S.

Germans did not sell them the Leo license, Americans will 'not' sell them the A1 license, Russians do not sell the license they sell the ready product and all production lines are taken by modernisations of their own armored park or exports to India.

France will not make a deal with China because that'd piss of US and as such France would face pressure from Britain, UK sucks US ***** like a professional ***** so no Challengers either, no one is going to sell China advanced technology in quantity that allows large scale production of existing modern MBTs.

Notice how everyone is trading with everyone, hardware changes hands but China is somehow bypassed in the large scale trade, sure Israel helped here, Russia sold something there but it hardly covers the needs, chinese army is practically riding on bikes and their current level of advancement doesnt give them much hope for better hardware.

In short there is an unofficial embargo on improving chinese hardware.