Wood.....Bullets.....??? - Page 3




 
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January 20th, 2005  
EuroSpike
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by EOD
Quote:
Originally Posted by EuroSpike
War is already totally lost at that time when bullets have to be maken of wood.
There was no war when the Fins did that
Yes, but those wooden bullet cartridges are exercise ammunition, not real live rounds for combat use and are painted blue to avoid them getting messed with real rounds. They are just Platzpatrone, you know. I have personally shot hundreds of them during my military training.

If those wooden bullets are shot without crusher attached the muzzle, bullet flies only a couple of meters and breaks into small pieces. They don't give enough gas power to load rifle properly without crusher wich one purpose is to increase blowback.
January 20th, 2005  
EOD
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by EuroSpike
Quote:
Originally Posted by EOD
Quote:
Originally Posted by EuroSpike
War is already totally lost at that time when bullets have to be maken of wood.
There was no war when the Fins did that
Yes, but those wooden bullet cartridges are exercise ammunition, not real live rounds for combat use and are painted blue to avoid them getting messed with real rounds. They are just Platzpatrone, you know. I have personally shot hundreds of them during my military training.

If those wooden bullets are shot without crusher attached the muzzle, bullet flies only a couple of meters and breaks into small pieces. They don't give enough gas power to load rifle properly without crusher wich one purpose is to increase blowback.
Sir I'm still not talking about wooden blanks but about short range projectiles for short range practice which look way different - I assume you have never seen one of those. I mean a total different thing and it is not what you have in mind.
January 20th, 2005  
EuroSpike
 
"Sir I'm still not talking about wooden blanks but about short range projectiles for short range practice which look way different - I assume you have never seen one of those. I mean a total different thing and it is not what you have in mind."

Ok. Only wooden bullets i know or have ever seen or heard about in the local neighbourhood are those excercise platzpatronen. Earlier excercise ammunition didn't have wooden bullets and that put me to think about those wooden bullet tests you told earlier.

We use aluminium heart bullets as close range rounds and they are lighter and cause less recoil. I like them 8) I only wander who the h*** wants to make bullets of wood since they are too light, soft, have no penetration capability + they are propably unstable and inaccurate.

But if developed succesfully and they really work and are able to match regular FMJ bullets, they could be very cheap, fast manufactured and production wouldn't stop by lack of material wich is only positive thing. But how to increase the bullet's mass?
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January 21st, 2005  
EOD
 
Correct the aluminum cored short range projectiles have a knurling on the cylindrical part.
The one with the wood which is ALSO a short range projectile was probably taken out of service because of exact the treasons you mentioned.
The advantage was certainly the cheap manufacture and the light projectile.

Finland had later also a short range projectile beeing used on the 7.62x39 as well as on the 7.62x53R rifle cartridge. It consisted just of an empty projectile jacket which was drawn in one piece and had a closed base and an open tip (0.5-1mm) and looked like a round nose projectile. It also had a knurling for marking.
Beside all this Finland made countless prototypes in 7.62x39 with plastic cartridges (PT - plastic training) in various colors and also some with brass cases and plastic projectiles on them.
January 21st, 2005  
EuroSpike
 
"Finland had later also a short range projectile beeing used on the 7.62x39 as well as on the 7.62x53R rifle cartridge. It consisted just of an empty projectile jacket which was drawn in one piece and had a closed base and an open tip (0.5-1mm) and looked like a round nose projectile. It also had a knurling for marking.
Beside all this Finland made countless prototypes in 7.62x39 with plastic cartridges (PT - plastic training) in various colors and also some with brass cases and plastic projectiles on them."

PT cartridges were replaced by platzpatronen with wooden bullets in 80s if i remember right but there has been no PTs in use for long time and those platzpatronen are made in 7.62x53r too because PKM uses them and they are needed in combat excercises.

Wooden bullets just won't work as live combat ammunition and that can be easily proven by using mathematics and physical science and computer aided simulations and researching engineers are't stupid. The whole idea is mindless and what would happen those rounds if the get even a bit wet in rain?

Using short range projectiles along standard ammunition would only cause problems with logistic and thats why different calibres and ammo types have been kept only in few ones and old for example LMG62 uses the same 762x39 round as other assault rifles in the squad and platoon.

Aluminiun core round "ALS-round" is used and issued sometimes in live round excersises because it's lower price. It has lower penetration but is a good ammunition in ranges 0-150m, almost no recoil is very positive feature. 8)


What markings are on the bottoms of rounds and what reads on the ammo boxes (capacity 30rnds)? On the cartridge's bottoms should be marking "VPT" and manufacturing year and on ammo boxes ammunition's ID key should start with letters "JVA".
January 24th, 2005  
EOD
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by EuroSpike
"Finland had later also a short range projectile beeing used on the 7.62x39 as well as on the 7.62x53R rifle cartridge. It consisted just of an empty projectile jacket which was drawn in one piece and had a closed base and an open tip (0.5-1mm) and looked like a round nose projectile. It also had a knurling for marking.
Beside all this Finland made countless prototypes in 7.62x39 with plastic cartridges (PT - plastic training) in various colors and also some with brass cases and plastic projectiles on them."

PT cartridges were replaced by platzpatronen with wooden bullets in 80s if i remember right but there has been no PTs in use for long time and those platzpatronen are made in 7.62x53r too because PKM uses them and they are needed in combat excercises.

Wooden bullets just won't work as live combat ammunition and that can be easily proven by using mathematics and physical science and computer aided simulations and researching engineers are't stupid. The whole idea is mindless and what would happen those rounds if the get even a bit wet in rain?

Using short range projectiles along standard ammunition would only cause problems with logistic and thats why different calibres and ammo types have been kept only in few ones and old for example LMG62 uses the same 762x39 round as other assault rifles in the squad and platoon.

Aluminiun core round "ALS-round" is used and issued sometimes in live round excersises because it's lower price. It has lower penetration but is a good ammunition in ranges 0-150m, almost no recoil is very positive feature. 8)


What markings are on the bottoms of rounds and what reads on the ammo boxes (capacity 30rnds)? On the cartridge's bottoms should be marking "VPT" and manufacturing year and on ammo boxes ammunition's ID key should start with letters "JVA".

Soaking water is probably why the wooden component short range cartridges were phased out (beside other reasons) - they have no combat value because they are meant for training.
The aluminum core rounds are certainly more expensive than the standart FMJ with lead core, they are just used to give a shorter danger zone and to be able to shoot in areas and shooting ranges closer to populated areas.
The Finnish cartridges have VPT (Lapua) or SO (Sako) head stamps, late prodcution has the word "LAPUA" fully written. There are even Italian head stamp on Finnish cartridges which were originally 6.5mm Carcano cartridges which were reworked and necked down to be a 7.62x39 cartridge (blanks and life rounds). This was done in the early days when Finalnd had plenty of that stuff left over from WWII.
Of course the Finnish ammo boxes have the "JVA-..." federal stock no on them.
I don't wont to puzzle you but my research on Finnish 7.62x39 cartridges is likely the largest outside Finland and I have a good friend there and another guy from outside Finland which have good relations to the manufacturers.
January 24th, 2005  
EuroSpike
 
"Soaking water is probably why the wooden component short range cartridges were phased out (beside other reasons) - they have no combat value because they are meant for training.
The aluminum core rounds are certainly more expensive than the standart FMJ with lead core, they are just used to give a shorter danger zone and to be able to shoot in areas and shooting ranges closer to populated areas.
The Finnish cartridges have VPT (Lapua) or SO (Sako) head stamps, late prodcution has the word "LAPUA" fully written. There are even Italian head stamp on Finnish cartridges which were originally 6.5mm Carcano cartridges which were reworked and necked down to be a 7.62x39 cartridge (blanks and life rounds). This was done in the early days when Finalnd had plenty of that stuff left over from WWII."

Oh sorry, i forgot, aluminium is more expensive to manufacture so ALS should be more expensive than common FMJs. The most common combat rounds used are basic VPTs with FMJ and lead core, phosfor rounds in night (can't translate in english) and ALS rounds. There is also a lot of german ex-DDR and russian imported rounds in storages and they are not used or seen anywhere during peace time.

That SO marking's origin i have wandered a lot but now it is clear, thanks for that.

"Of course the Finnish ammo boxes have the "JVA-..." federal stock no on them."

Letters come from words:
JVA = JalkaVäen Ampumatarvike, infantry's ammunition ordnance.
VPT = Valtion Patruuna Tehdas, state's ammunition factory.
SAKO = Suojeluskuntien AseKOrjaamo, homeguard's armory.
Lapua = A town in west finland.

"my research on Finnish 7.62x39 cartridges is likely the largest outside Finland and I have a good friend there and another guy from outside Finland which have good relations to the manufacturers."

Sounds interesting. I guess you have a large collection of different cartridges?
January 24th, 2005  
k19
 
yeah, some wood is HARD, my family has a long wooden chair made by red wood(don't know what you guys call it) and i can't even lift it by my own, and my father say if you throw it in the water, it sunks not flow......
January 24th, 2005  
k19
 
Oh yeah, I think it's possible, remember the CSI show, a guy uses grand beef to make the bullets heads (dip it into liquid Nitration or something) so after killing people, they can't find the bullets….
January 24th, 2005  
EOD
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by EuroSpike
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Sounds interesting. I guess you have a large collection of different cartridges?
Only about Soviet/Russian and related calibers as well as former Warsaw Pact and western copies of these cartridges (only ervice ammo).