Originally Posted by RnderSafe

Yes, it matters unless somehow they were being invaded, 1300 isn't going to make or break them. Now, it's a good excuse .. and looks good and logical, but it isn't very practical - and it's the obvious tactic to use "out" of the debate.

Well now, I thought it was a strategic choice? Make up your mind, lad!

As I said, I've got no problems with them pulling their troops out of Iraq, they could have pulled them because they decided they wanted to send them on a Disney World trip and I wouldn't have cared. I appreciated what they did, and that's that. My problem is with a government bowing to down to terrorists out of fear and to achieve political gain.

I like my political point better though!

I like my political point better though!

So why are you arguing the "strategic" point?!?

Originally Posted by RnderSafe

So why are you arguing the "strategic" point?!?

I was cought in the moment

Thats just speculations though.
And he probebly would have started WW2 even if so. Although thats once again speculations

NO, AlexKall they are not - look at history! Sadam has along history of attacking his neighbors and what better way to focus discontent than against an outside opponent (real or not) - just ask any tyrant in history.

As to Hitler, if so much as ONE French soldier has shown up to oppose the German reoccupation of the Rhineland, the commanders of the Greman Army units had orders to turn around and go back. This would have caused the Hitler's government to collapse as he was still ruling thru the Reichstag at that point and did not have the broad support/strangle hold on power he would shortly thereafter. A cheap price to avoid WWII wouldn't you say?

Originally Posted by RnderSafe

Good try, Alex, but they didn't have that many troops there.

You would end surprised of how much those 1300 soldiers really make a diference in the Spanish defense system... Probably we were in the limit of our deployment capability, mantaining at the same time the garrisons in the south and the reaction capability - the Moroccan frontier never has been considered safe by the army chiefs.

Anyway, two cents in the matter from a Spaniard - a soldier, additionaly. While I do agree that the terrorist attacks in Madrid turned the elections to the Socialist party, I have to say that it wasn't the attacks themselves but the clumsy attempts of the goverment to hide Al-Qaeda responsibility which turned angry the people. As for the withdrawal itself, the Socialist Party had promised it before the attacks. I won't enter in the complex politic life of Spain, but believe me when I said that the terrorist influence is not as great as it would seem.

I will not enter in a discussion wheter if the withdrawal is good or bad. I, of course, have my opinion, but one of my duties as a military is to not question the politics of my goverment openly, as long as they're the results of the will of the people.

About the Spanish troops in Afghanistan, that's an entirely different matter. No one has spoken here a word about a withdrawal there - moreover, I've heard rumours that point that Spain is going to command a province there, therefore increasing the number of troops.

If I sound as if I'm defending Spain, it's probably because I am doing it.

Still a withdrawal announced 2 days after the attacks is to be regarded to as a bowing to terrorists.

Sapper, I was wondering when we would get to hear your take on the situation .
I realize that the withdrawal was promised by the Socialists beforehand (I am nearly wholly uneducated on Spanish politics aside from that point, however), but it still gives the APPEARANCE of caving to the terrorists, regardless of what the facts are (personally I believe that the Socialists, and the more left-wing people here, as well, are and have been bowing to the demands of the terrorists and those who support them all along).
I do appreciate and respect the sacrifice of the Spanish troops who served in Iraq and are currently serving in Afghanistan.

As for the withdrawal itself, the Socialist Party had promised it before the attacks.

You forget one important detail, Sapper. Originally, it was stated that Spanish troops would be withdrawn by the June 30 handover, if no follow-on UN force had been authorized, it was part of the election platform. Never was it said .. "As soon as I'm elected we'll unass Iraq."

As I have stated, Spain was there in the beginning, and nothing she's done can negate the sacrifices of the Spanish troops. I've worked with them many times, and have always found them to be professionals ready and willing to fight when called upon. That does not mean, however, that the decision to placate terrorists was the "right" one.

Despite any excuses that can be made, because of the government, Spain now looks as if she bowed down to the terrorists demands. And what has it given Spain? Nothing. Spain is not safer. Europe is not safer. No one/thing is better off.

That's right.

Roger that Rndr. People civilians especially need to remember that it is the NCA that makes decisions like this not the military infrastructure.

An appeaser is a man that feeds a crocodile, hoping that it will eat him last.
-Winston Churchill

Looks like Spain is feeding the crocodile to me. If it were me I would have ordered the bombing of targets throughout the terrorist networks. The only way that terrorists will learn is if you bomb the living hell out of them. After september 11th, Kabul should have been a parking lot. Falluja after the uprising, US and Friendly Personnel should have been pulled out of Falluja and it should have been turned into a smoldering ruin. Oh, wait, the Iraqis already did it themselves, and then they expect us to hepl them fix it. There is something fundamentally wrong with them. Do they not see that we are trying to help re-build the country that Saddam destroyed? Or do they want to live in the Dark ages?

Screw it maybe we should just NUKE Mecca, hey if they wanna play hardball, we can play hardball. They want to try to cut the heart out of our population, why don't we just burn theirs and make it a smoldering ruin for the next few thousand years.

Maybe I am just getting pissed about all of this, and being hot-headed.