WINNER OF WW2 - Page 10




 
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November 12th, 2004  
USAFAUX2004
 
 
1. USSR didnt have the weapons like the Germans (Machine guns, chlorine gas, panzer tanks) and were unprepared to fight.

Russian had weapons and they were ready to fight


2.The USSR side didnt have any tanks or weapons to fight with right away.(so most of it fell under German control)

Russia was ready to invade germany if france had held on for a few more weeks

3. Stalin believed that Hitler would keep his promise and his treaty, althought the USSR intelligence told them that there will be an attack upcoming.

It was british intelligence and he knew he could not trust hitler (thats why he planned to invade first)

4. After the first launched attack , Stalin couldn't believe wut has happened, and went to his private home and stayed there for a week before getting his mind together and went to Moscow.

He believed it because he anticipated it all along
November 12th, 2004  
godofthunder9010
 
 

Topic: Re: USSR WON, SO ALL U RUSSIAN'S BE PROUD


Good post. I agree with much of what your saying, but there's some inaccuracies. Whether the rest of the world wants to admit it or not, the rest of the world owes a tremendous debt to the Russian people and their sacrifice in World War II.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirill K
U ask me who won WW2? Lol. it was pretty obvious that the USSR did all of the major parts.
On the European side, you're absolutely right. As far as the Japanese side of the war ... that's another matter entirely.

Quote:
1. USSR didnt have the weapons like the Germans (Machine guns, chlorine gas, panzer tanks) and were unprepared to fight.
2.The USSR side didnt have any tanks or weapons to fight with right away.(so most of it fell under German control)
The Red Army was something of a headless dragon (with most of its officers dead courtesy of Stalin). They also were not the fine-tuned, experienced machine of war like the German Army was. Still, they so greatly outnumbered the Germans in Tanks, Combat Aircraft, and sheer numbers that its miraculous that the Germans did as well as they did. The USSR has a lot of tanks, many of which (T-34's) were better than anything Germany could put in the field. Their aircraft were inferior, but they had a LOT more of them than Germany did. Neither side was as well equipped as they ought to have been, but both sides were better equipped than any other army on the planet.

The German Wehrmacht may have been only a fraction of the size of the Red Army in all categories at the beginning of Barbarossa -- but being outnumbered was nothing new to them. They were an incredibly effective military force that only one country managed to stop -- Russia.

Not only did everyone else get beaten like a red-headed stepchild against Germany in 1939-1940, they got beat BAD and FAST. Poland had a very strong military, and it was ripped to shreds almost effortlessly. When Germany invaded France, they were outnumbered in both manpower and tanks, but it took only 40 days. Britain did manage to stop the Luftwaffe, but that only 1 card in the Wehrmacht's deck -- and not the best one at that. The simple truth of it -- the seemed to be completely unstoppable on the ground. The were unstoppable -- until Russia. The USSR was better prepared in terms of mobile warfare, but it still took a tremendous toll in Russian blood to stop Germany, push them back and eventually crush them.

The USA and the UK got off easy, plain and simple.

Another correction: There was never any agreement between France and the USSR. Stalin had thusfar benefitted from friendly relations with Nazi Germany. He was a little too trusting.

Doppleganger and I are likely to disagree on one point -- Stalin was 99% liability and 1% help in the whole matter. The Russian People won the victory in spite of his absolutely terrible leadership; his blantant disregard for the masses of Russian men dying for the cause; his completely unnecssary establishment of killing squads behind the lines to execute anyone trying to retreat. His secret police even murdered the genius that developed the T34! I'm not willing to give Stalin one shred of credit for much of anything -- credit belongs to the people of the USSR and Russia.
November 12th, 2004  
USAFAUX2004
 
 
Thunder i agree that we, the russians were VERY helpful, but did not help on japan.
We did fight off an invasion plan and we were almost ready to go in after the german fall.
My G-Grandfather was a LtCol at the time and he would have commanded pity crime troops from siberia, but the US "dropped the bomb" (and it wasn't the F-bomb)
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November 12th, 2004  
Doppleganger
 
 

Topic: Re: USSR WON, SO ALL U RUSSIAN'S BE PROUD


Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010
Doppleganger and I are likely to disagree on one point -- Stalin was 99% liability and 1% help in the whole matter. The Russian People won the victory in spite of his absolutely terrible leadership; his blantant disregard for the masses of Russian men dying for the cause; his completely unnecssary establishment of killing squads behind the lines to execute anyone trying to retreat. His secret police even murdered the genius that developed the T34! I'm not willing to give Stalin one shred of credit for much of anything -- credit belongs to the people of the USSR and Russia.
Stalin was a brutal, megalomaniacal, cruel sadist with little regard for the lives of his subjects but his speech on November 7th in many observers eyes really did stir the spirits of the average Soviet citizen. It was a speech to compare with Winston Churchill's Battle of Britain speech. Stalin was a monster but you can't take away what that speech did for his nation.

His ruthless control of STAVKA too meant that the sheer panic gripping the USSR in 1941 was in many ways expunged. It was a desperate time for the Soviet Union where its very existence was on the line. IMO not many leaders would have recovered the situation the way Stalin did. Whether you like him or not and very few did, he did what any leader must do in a crisis. He motivated and stirred his citizens and soldiers and he brutally crushed any opposition or dissent so that the whole nation was focused on one thing - to repel the fascist invaders.
November 12th, 2004  
Doppleganger
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by drilldownmaster2004
1. USSR didnt have the weapons like the Germans (Machine guns, chlorine gas, panzer tanks) and were unprepared to fight.

Russian had weapons and they were ready to fight


2.The USSR side didnt have any tanks or weapons to fight with right away.(so most of it fell under German control)

Russia was ready to invade germany if france had held on for a few more weeks

3. Stalin believed that Hitler would keep his promise and his treaty, althought the USSR intelligence told them that there will be an attack upcoming.

It was british intelligence and he knew he could not trust hitler (thats why he planned to invade first)

4. After the first launched attack , Stalin couldn't believe wut has happened, and went to his private home and stayed there for a week before getting his mind together and went to Moscow.

He believed it because he anticipated it all along
I've heard this theory that the USSR were planning to launch a pre-emptive strike. IMO there's just not enough evidence that this was the case.

Also, it wasn't just British Intelligence who told Stalin that Hitler was about to invade. His own trusted spy Richard Sorge told him too. I really believe that Stalin was taken totally by surprise when Hitler invaded. I mean, if he had anticipated it, he would not have had his armies deployed the way they were along the German-Soviet border and he would have dispersed his front-line aircraft into forward positions. Also, Red Army commanders begged STAVKA to allow them to put their troops onto heightened alert but Stalin refused until midnight June 21 '41 which was of course far too late. So the Red Army were not ready to fight.
November 12th, 2004  
godofthunder9010
 
 
The theory of a pre-emptive strike seems unlikely to me. After securing the Non-Aggression Treaty with Germany, he was focussing on purging the Red Army of its officers because he saw them as a threat to him. There was likely a conspiracy on some level -- tends to be very difficult to tell with Stalin's cronies rewriting the history and erasing a lot of evidence -- but Stalin went too far with it.

In his favor, he managed to build the Red Army into an enormous fighting force, the likes of which had never been seen before on Earth. They had modern equipment and generally were well trained. The truth be told, they were more up to date on the concepts of mechanized warfare than anybody other than the Germans. He built up Soviet Industry and transportation.

The speech was lovely, but I don't agree that the iron fist of the NKVD and STAVKA really helped the war effort. Once the Russian people saw the types of attrocities the Germans committed in the Ukraine, I think they fully realized that they had to win the war or suffer either slavery or death at Germany's hands. They were more than willing to fight to the death to protect Mother Russia.
November 13th, 2004  
Young Winston
 
 
The "Don't take one step back" policy (1942 I think) was a rather ruthless policy to try and stop any more retreats by the Soviets.

Have you guys read about the "Blocking" & "Punishment" Battalions used by the Soviets as well.

The Germans were amazed at these tactics!!

Anyway the winner of the war was the US, the military and economic No.1 superpower.
November 13th, 2004  
USAFAUX2004
 
 
there is another thread for postwar winners, its the profiteers of WW2 thread
November 13th, 2004  
godofthunder9010
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by drilldownmaster2004
Thunder i agree that we, the russians were VERY helpful, but did not help on japan.
We did fight off an invasion plan and we were almost ready to go in after the german fall.
My G-Grandfather was a LtCol at the time and he would have commanded pity crime troops from siberia, but the US "dropped the bomb" (and it wasn't the F-bomb)
I know that the USSR was ready to jump in and help with Japan, but the fact remains that they were not a major player on that side of the World War II. They did repel a Japanese invasioninto Siberia in 1939 but the USSR and Japan pretty much left each other alone from that point on.

The 2 most import Allies vs Japan were the USA and China IMO.
November 13th, 2004  
USAFAUX2004
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010
Quote:
Originally Posted by drilldownmaster2004
Thunder i agree that we, the russians were VERY helpful, but did not help on japan.
We did fight off an invasion plan and we were almost ready to go in after the german fall.
My G-Grandfather was a LtCol at the time and he would have commanded pity crime troops from siberia, but the US "dropped the bomb" (and it wasn't the F-bomb)
I know that the USSR was ready to jump in and help with Japan, but the fact remains that they were not a major player on that side of the World War II. They did repel a Japanese invasioninto Siberia in 1939 but the USSR and Japan pretty much left each other alone from that point on.

The 2 most import Allies vs Japan were the USA and China IMO.

yes thats true, but the major player in WW2 was germany and they could do alot of bad things if they won