Will United States defend Taiwan against Chinese invasion? - Page 7




 
--
 
August 29th, 2004  
godofthunder9010
 
 
The statement is repeated over and over again: "Taiwan/Formosa is part of China." This is presented as though it were an indisputable fact. What I'd like to know is this: Why is Formosa/Taiwan a part of China? When did that happen? I'd like to hear you build your case for this point, rather than just throwing it out there. I'll make the counterpoint right now. The people of Taiwan have never submitted themselves to the rulership of the People's Republic of China. That means that they are not bound by any agreement. They did not submit themselves to the Costitution (for lack of a better word, give me a better one if you like) of China. They were a part of China under an old government and Constitution that no longer exists. Since they have never bound themselves to the current government.

To your counterpoint, I'm a bit lost by your statements about California and Texas. Texas gained its independence from Mexico, appealed for statehood (thereby agreeing to be bound to the USA and its Constitution), and was turned down. There wasn't room for them because the political system required that there had to be an equal number of slave and free states. So briefly, they were their own nation. Not too long thereafter, they were admitted into Statehood (once again at their own request). California has some liberal nutjobs, make no mistake, but I can guarantee that if you hold an election tomorrow, 99.9% of Californians will vote to remain part of the United States. Texas (because of its pride in having already been a seperate country) would be more like 95%. Those movements do not represent the majority view, but apparently the majority of Taiwanese oppose being part of China. That makes Cuba a better example: 1.) Since we know the Cuban people would definitely not vote to rejoin the USA. 2.) Because we have an equal and coinciding duration of self rule to compare the two. 3.) Because neither one bound themselves to the current Constitution or government.

The US Civil War does not fall into the same category as Taiwan. Those states had bound themselves to the Constitution of the United States, and their defection was in breach of contract, if you will.

For comparison to the riots you are citing, I'd like to see the numbers on Tianamen Square. Was it 10 or 20 killed? 30? Try several thousand. That makes for a poor comparison with the riots that you are citing. Also, China didn't exactly go out of its way to NOT kill the protesters like the US ultimately did. Quite the reverse was true. Did the US torture or execute those taken prisoner? Nope. Still, despite the tremendous differences, I can see what you're getting at.

I will agree with proteinxx, the discussion has managed to remain civil for the most part. That allows us to actually try to understand each other's point of view. Still, the "lets nuke the world" business was a bit over the top.

On a different level that nobdy seems to be exploring, what is the motivating factor for Taiwan peacefully rejoining China? Per capita, Taiwanese are one hell of a lot better off without China right now. China has adopted the policy of trying to bully them into it thusfar. Why haven't the Chinese explored more diplomatic means of achieving their goal of controlling Taiwan? Can China actually claim that Taiwan will be better off by submitting to their rule?

The Tibetans can speak for themselves just fine:
http://www.tibet.org/
http://www.tibet.com/
http://omni.cc.purdue.edu/~wtv/tibet/Welcome.html
http://www.tibetinfo.net/

Or just run a search. There's a TON of information. Your Chinese sources are tainted. So, very likely, are the Tibetan sources. Do some reasearch and try to filter out the fact from the fiction.
August 29th, 2004  
GuyontheRight
 
I would venture to say that perhaps you yourself Flying, have been indoctrinated by your government on some level.
August 29th, 2004  
proteinxx
 

Topic: spin head


none
--
August 29th, 2004  
GuyontheRight
 
Quote:
First, are you sure you must have a right number? secondly, your government killed, Chinese government killed, there were both riots. You really want to put number into it? then why not add all those dead Indians into your stats also?
Name a riot in which the United States government perpously killed
August 29th, 2004  
proteinxx
 
I have plenty examples depends on how you define "purposely", so please name a riot Chinese government purposely killed then I know your standard.
August 29th, 2004  
gladius
 
Once the Chinese goverment executes someone, don't they bill the persons family for the bullets used in his execution.

That's really something aint it.
August 29th, 2004  
GuyontheRight
 
Tianamen Square, proteinxx, since it's obviouse your so blindly misinformed and a simple "yes-man" to the Chinese government, I see no reason to carry on this conversation.
August 29th, 2004  
godofthunder9010
 
 

Topic: Re: spin head


Quote:
Originally Posted by proteinxx
I would answer this question by asking your question " From california to New York, why this large piece of land belong to United State? why? when? who said so?" ---kind of like spinning your head, :P
That's easy. All of them volutarily joined. Nobody forced any of them into anything.

Quote:
First, are you sure you must have a right number? secondly, your government killed, Chinese government killed, there were both riots. You really want to put number into it? then why not add all those dead Indians into your stats also?
My suggestion is to remain within the 20th and 21st centuries. Nobody knows how to massacre people throughout history quite like the various different ethnic groups that we currently call Chinese. Well, that's hard to say for sure, but they are most certainly not angels. Put simply, there is MUCH ugliness prior to 1900 throughout the world. The human race ought to at least know better by 1980, wouldn't you say?

Quote:
No.1 controlling of land is different from controlling people, different issue. China government has repeatly declares tons of peaceful solutions, it is Taiwan local leader rush to declare independecnce and naively think USA will certainly help them no matter what. Why did they do that? I guess we had discussion somewhere else in this forum.
The main issues to this are as follows:
1.) Taiwan currently doesn't see much advantage in rejoining. They seem to think they're doing pretty good on their own. How would you convince them that they're better off joining China (other than bashing them into submission)? You answer that question and you're a LONG ways to a peaceful solution.
2.) For some reason, the people of Taiwan think you're out to get them. I wonder where they got that idea?
3.) They don't trust you on a very long list of human rights issues. That part isn't easily solved, since China has repeatedly denied access to independent observers to prove that they are not violating human rights. Awfully tough to prove to them that they aren't going to get raped for trusting you.

Quote:
Quote:
what is the motivating factor for Taiwan peacefully rejoining China?
The are 50% of Taiwanese support "blue" party which dont support the independence. The motivation? Chinese blood tie. You guys never understand that.
Likely true, but of THAT party, how many want to open their doors and rejoin mainland China? Also, I'd appreciate it if you can give me a non-Chinese source to back up your statement just so we know that the numbers are good.
Quote:
Quote:
The Tibetans can speak for themselves just fine:
http://www.tibet.org/ ....
check who is running these websites and who is providing these exagerated data . Besides, when you say I am blind to the correct information, why should not I clainm you are misleading people by using biased information? I have tons of Chinese word information here but you might not read them . Travel to there and setup your conclusion then.
Imagine that! A bunch of Tibetans tell the story of Tibet. I trust China and its official media about as much as I trust that of the Soviet Union's. I flat out don't. Communism likes to brainwash its people and write off any embarrassing details. Ever hear of Operation Mars? Neither had anyone else for a very long time. The Soviets didn't like the fact that they lost 500,000 to Germany's 40,000, so they wrote it out of existence. Why on earth would I trust a news media controlled by a totalitarianist Communist regime? If you are gullible enough to accept the Chinese version as the only credible source then I really feel for you.

You are welcome to post your sources of course. You are welcome to believe that China isn't just putting a good face forward to foreign tourists. But honestly, lets take it to a poll. How many people on this International forum believe that China's media is a reliable source? I'll make the poll, we'll see what people think.
August 29th, 2004  
godofthunder9010
 
 
I don't have a degree in the Chinese version of history, no. That's going to make my points of view seem strange because I'm guessing you prolly do. Do you?

Anyways, the poll is started and it needs lots of broad perspectives. Some of the posts are asking for some samples from Chinese media so they have something to go on. They're calling you man!

As far as how the USA became the USA, I'm not proud of the treatment of the Indians or of certain other parties. I'm proud to say that we don't behave like that these days. The fact of the matter is this: EVERY STATE is required to have a majority of their state vote in favor of becoming part of the United States. So ultimately you have a majority vote within a specific geographical area that came to the USA and requested admittence.
August 30th, 2004  
SAINT
 
Anyway, a bigger country (China) trying to takeover a smaller one (Taiwan) is simple wrong. It's plain aggression.

Admin: Comment Removed!