Will Israel and USA attack Iran - Page 2




 
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August 13th, 2004  
SHERMAN
 
 
It was just within range...
August 13th, 2004  
godofthunder9010
 
 
Let us hope and pray that the US and Israel never undertake a coopperative military opperation again any Arab country. What a Political nightmare!

But yeah, I don't trust ANY group of relgious fanatics with nukes ... as a policy of wanting to see the human race not being completely wiped out at some point in the future. So yeah, unless something drastic happens to change the government of Iran, them having nuclear weapons is something that absolutely cannot be allowed to happen. How you stop it? Eh, somebody else figure it out.
August 13th, 2004  
GuyontheRight
 
Do not forget that Iran has it's own social problems. The kids these days hate the Ayatollahs (How the hell do you spell that?).
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August 13th, 2004  
Airborne Eagle
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SHERMAN
It was just within range...
That's kinda what I was thinking...
August 29th, 2004  
Doc.S
 
I take it back....

Israel and US will attack Iran toghter I think..... 8)

Cheers:
Doc.S

August 29th, 2004  
Marksman
 
 
that move might not end up as its planed...............
August 29th, 2004  
Celestial Intellect
 
Surely they will!

As an Iranian Moslem I think there is a lot that you can learn from me and vice versa, of course if you are interested. I can share what I know from our military to philosophy. Remember that I will do my best to only provide facts without any emotional talking, so that we may conduct a healthy debate, I do urge you to do the same. You can learn more from your enemy than a friend! Although naturally it is our governments that have problems not we ordinary people, but eventually we have to take sides.

First I would like you to know that most of those people who are talking about regime change in Iran are backed and financially supported by US and its allies, for instance, the Iranians who live in US. You can hear that stuff from them and smell the stench of exaggeration and the bended truth; yet back in my country we mostly support our government. Economical problems can be found within any country. Please note that Islamic Government has been existing only for some 25 years of which 8 years have been fighting Saddam. This is a small part of history. During this time we have been under different types of sanctions which further weakened the improvement of Iran. So personally I don’t blame our government for the problems.
Iran-Iraq war was triggered by Saddam in form of an invasion. Saddam was being supported from Russia, Arab countries, France, USA and many other countries. US provided Saddam satellite intelligence and sold double use chemical technology to him. At the time Saddam's air force and mechanised units were up-to-date and new. The main problem of Iran was spare-parts, so we couldn't even repair the simplest problems.
Anyways, after war Iran started to build up its military, so no other nation would invade again.
As you know already since then IRI has been cooperating with China, Russia, South Korea and some other countries to import military technology, at the same time through means of reverse engineering acquiring other technologies, modifying the old units and improving them. Most importantly now Iran produce its own ammunition, guns, missiles, APCs, Tanks and spare parts, so being self sufficient was the main aim. Apart from modifying and improving the armour, also has been designing new APCs, small tactical tanks and even a stealth fighter.
The stealth fighter that from some aspects is similar to the new version of Russian MIG, yet it does use an Iranian radar system. Of course as usual it's eject sit is Russian and it's engine is believed to be the modified version of Mig 29's, the design of its body which has a new circular shape in the middle is Iranian; more importantly this will be mass produced by the year 2008. If you are interested in detailed information, I can provide links to useful sites and images. We’ve got some Kilo class Russian submarines as well.
A little more sanctions and Iran will become even tougher. But it's all words, all I can say is that never underestimate your enemy.
As for nukes and WMDs, let’s assume that Iran actually acquired nukes, in comparison of numbers US and Israel got a lot more, so it is unwise for Iran to go nuclear even if it had. So it's just nonsense to argue that it's a threat to the world peace. Some might argue that we might give them to terrorists! But can you see the difference? If a nuke blow up then the whole world will go nuclear.
The most important strength of Moslems is that they don't fear death, specially when they have a leader and are defending their land; this gives them the edge of courage, because you have given them a reason to fight. It is the rule that the invader usually has less motivation to fight than the defender in his land, an example of this could be Vietnam.

Invading Iran will be the last level of the game I would say. So please save the game before initiating! lol

Personally I think the day will come and the Armageddon battle will take place in Middle East, considering the influence that Iran has on its neighbouring countries, imagine Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran and Syria out of a sudden start to fight the same battle. Although I’m sure many other countries will join both sides, what a mess. US or rather Israel could launch its nukes and go for ethnic cleansing! But then you won’t be able to use the radiated land for years. Also you will receive some in return.
“You can kill a man but not an Idea “; I wonder who said that.

I see your government as being led by Israel and a big oppressor. He who has the power is corrupt, and who’s got the most is the most corrupt. American people in my personal view are mostly ignorant, being influenced by the media. Of course you could say the same thing about Iranians. For god sake don’t accept any scrap of information they toss you! Why do you think a Moslem that wants to carry out a terrorist attack would carry a copy of Qur’an around and be bearded?! And please define the word “Terrorism” for yourself, if a B-52 drop a cluster above a small village, isn’t it terrorising poor people; if not enlighten me.
August 29th, 2004  
godofthunder9010
 
 
Firstly, of course your proposal of discussing is fine. That's what we do here. The two perspectives are muddied by the fact that we both are convinced that the other side has been brainwashed.

For one, the government of Iran under the Shah was corrupt and there are bad things that can be said of it, but it was the MOST technologically and economically advanced nation in all of Islam. The current government destroyed that, and I'm of the opinion that it was a stupid move. Fine to throw out the Shah, but why drag your country back into the dark ages? Modern Iran, from what you've said, is trying so hard to recover from it and get their nation back on track.

The biggest disagreement that US and Iran has is simple. Terrorism. Iran funds it, trains men for it, financially supports it and openly encourages it. Yet terrorism has not benefitted anyone. Israel can "legitimately" oppress the Palestinian people because the fact is, any one of them at any moment could be a terrorist trying to kill them. Take away suicide bombers, hijackers and the like, and then Israel has no more justification for mistreating the Palestinians in any way. It would also go a long way towards correcting the false stereotype that "Muslims are a bunch of religious fanatics who are out to kill everyone". Sure, drop terrorism and the psycho extremist groups would have to concede that Israel has the right to exist, but so what? Israel would have to concede that Palestine has the right to exist as well (which they are already doing in a limited sense ...). Why is acknowledging what already is (Israel) so very hard? Why provoke the USA into ever having a reason to invade by promoting the murder of its citizens?

No I don't agree with you on the playing field being equal if it came to war between the USA and Iran. Iraq was in the same boat: They were relatively up to date. Probably more up to date than Iran is now actually. It didn't go well for them at all.

I don't trust religions of the world (don't care which one we're talking about) to control nukes. Religious fanaticism can kick in and stupid things can happen. True, Israel has them. Israel is also completely surrounded by overwhelmingly numerically superior hostile populations. Esentially, its like Pakistan having them so as a means of discouraging India from invading. And please note, that's a Muslim country with nukes.

I don't agree that Christianity and Islam are doomed to battle one another is a final great war. That destiny is only achieved if we choose it. Mankind must choose.

Now I don't know who to believe about what the Iranian people's support of their government, but the Iranian government isn't exactly opening the door to majority approval deciding whether they continue to rule.
August 29th, 2004  
Celestial Intellect
 
Firstly I would say that Shah (king) of Iran was a US puppet, the revolution took place because we didn't want anyone else rule our country, it’s a very basic rule of democracy! Yet US even now still continue to install puppet regimes or elements in different countries. This is not just what I say, this is what Pakistanis, Egyptians, Afghans, Africans and others say.

Remember most of Iranians are religious; people chose to have an Islamic government and they voted! Why couldn’t US leave us be! Because US wanted her interests back perhaps maybe US don’t want an Islamic power in the region; and so they used Saddam to invade our country.
A US cruiser shot down an Iranian civilian aircraft and then they gave its captain a medal! These kinds of gestures would disgust anyone. US openly targeted and destroyed some of our oil platforms in the gulf. US helped Saddam to get away from UN and use more sarin and mustard gas against us, why didn’t any nation not even UN, condemned his actions at the time? Perhaps because weapons market was so hot!

Yes Iran does supports groups like Hamas and Hezbollah but even UK doesn’t count Hezbollah as a terrorist group, their fighting ground was and is in Lebanon, and they don’t operate out of that. Al-Qeada is different; Iran has absolutely nothing to do with bin laden; not to mention that some believe Bin laden is a CIA agent.
Osama was fighting Russians in Afghanistan, US supported him with stingers so they could shoot down Russian helicopters, and in fact they were successful. This double policy and face shifting is a dirty quality of US government. Yeah “because Iraq was a lesser evil we helped them against a greater evil!” That’s what an American well known figure said.

Hezbollah and Hamas are not terrorists they are recognised by their people and have a country, they fight for their freedom. The term “Terrorism” is just a label that you can stick to anything as you see fit.

As if US doesn’t support Israel, this tiny country (Israel) spends 10 times more than Iran on its military. And this must be the American tax payers money that flows into Sharon’s packet, at the same time there are people dieing of hunger out there.

Did the suicide bombers existed from the beginning of Palestinian – Israeli conflict? I don’t think so. Vietnamese did use suicide attacks and they weren’t Moslems. It’s a fighting style for the weaker opponent and since the location of Israel and Palestine are close to one another they both suffer civilian casualties unlike in the case of US-Iraq war that only Iraqis are suffering civilian death tolls. Imagine a rocket lands in your home and you loose your children, relatives, home, etc in the worst way. Now you ain’t got nothing to loose, you just want revenge in any way possible.

Is killing an old man on a wheelchair along with other civilians in the vicinity by a rocket, launched from a chopper, an assassination? Or rather a massacre!?

How else can the Palestinians fight back if not using suicide attacks, before the superior military of their occupier? Yet even at this you’re nagging. Perhaps maybe you want your enemy to sit and do what you wish.

Another interesting thing is that US is like a wolf that preys on weak and injured. What was the strongest country that US fought with after the world wars?


Quote:
No I don't agree with you on the playing field being equal if it came to war between the USA and Iran. Iraq was in the same boat: They were relatively up to date. Probably more up to date than Iran is now actually. It didn't go well for them at all.
Iraqis didn't even fight! They didn't even fly a Mig.
I was saying that at the time Iraq invaded Iran their military equipment was new and up to date however when you invaded them they didn't have much to say.
Iran will be completely different, US has to sink submarines, shoot down fighters, defend against long range guided missiles, kill lots of fanatics in a mountainous country. Defend against waves of suicidal remote controlled speed boats; Parachute tank deployment and a lot more. By the 2008 we will even have stealth fighters. Besides all this Iran also has a much better Air defence than Iraq.

What I'm trying to say is that Iran will be a considerably harder opponent, because people support their government and their leaders unlike the case in Iraq. And remember that we have some 70 million populations, a lot of man power that is, comparing to 30 million Iraq.
August 29th, 2004  
GuyontheRight
 
Celestial Intellect,
Is It not ture that their are those in your government who feel repressed by the conservative Islamic "Republic"?

I feel as those Hezbollah and Hamas are terrorists, why, because they kill innocent people on purpose. The US does not seek to kill innocent Iraqi's on purpose, but guess what, thats war, innocents die. If Hamas and the like were launching strikes on military targets alone, perhaps your argument would be valid, but when they are blowing up buses to kill civilians, that Is terror.

On a side, note, Bush is not an enemy of Islam, but America is. What do I mean by that, PM me and we can discuss it.