Originally Posted by Gregor1

@micha
You want to fight the fascists to the death? Did you also fought the communists to the death to defend the democracy? It seems as if you hate the fascism but tolerate the communism.

I'm not old enough to have experienced the cold war. But yes, I would have fought against communism in defense of democracy. I do not hate fascism. Hatred makes you blind and is not a particularly good way to relate to a possible threat.

If I tolerate Communism? I am a member of a conservative party and communism as such should be my natural enemy. But I do not see it this way. I fortunately live in a democratic society which is strong enough to hold many views. I tolerate and respect your right to be a Fascist / a Nazi / a Communist, or a religious fundamentalist, whether you are Christian, Jew or Muslim. But you should also be aware that I will fight them all with words, every time they are trying to advocate for their beliefs. And if some of you are trying, with violent means to overthrow democracy, I will fight you with weapons in hand. My attitude to totalitarian ideologies, whether political, religious or both, is that they are a contempt for life and is an escape from all the complex problems inherent in democracy and freedom. Fascism enslaves the population whereas in a democracy are we free to create our own society.

Originally Posted by Micha

But was Jesus not the first socialist, he seeks a better world for mankind. Not just one, but ALL humanity. Jesus said.. “I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.” Does that sound Capitalistic to you? So since Christ wanted all to be saved, he was a socialist.

Often pointed out, the essence of Jesus's ministry, notable by the Sermon on the Mount- the Beatitudes. My favourite, I recommend to anyone, any faith or none.

And of course he also answered to those who questioned him: 'Give unto Caesar what is Caesar's - Give to God what is God's'.

A man of the people certainly - I followed and listened as a kid. That's where I am coming from.

Micah..are those the only two conclusions your limited imagination can consider? that I am either a follower of Herbert Armstrong or I am a "troll"?

you are a child my friend. I would not suggest that you are stupid, just that you know a great many things that are wrong.

Herbert Armstrong was just one of Many who understood history and biblical truth.
I say one of many, because there have been volumes written on this subject and the conclusions are always the same..Germany by it's very Nature must dominate.
I wonder how you can explain the Fact that other than his overzealous date setting and his belief that WWII was the Last war this world would see...that Herbert Armstrong was almost entirely correct? he stood in the rubble of Germany's latest defeat and predicted with amazing insight EXACTLY the situation that now exists. how do you explain that? coincidence? luck?
it makes no difference to me if you remain blind to this fact, I am just trying to point out what most seem to forget. ask a German why he is one of the "sons of Asshur" or what "Deutschland" means

Why Germans Call Themselves “Deutsch”
Perhaps you have never thought of it — but the Germans do
not call themselves “German.” They refer to themselves as
DEUTSCH, and to their country as DEUTSCHLAND. Why?
Let’s turn back the pages of history for the answer.
The Assyrians anciently called their land “Athur” — the
Indo-Germanic form of the Semitic word “Asshur” (”Encyclopedia
Britannica”, article, “Mesopotamia”).
Sometimes the name “Athur” was shortened simply to “Tyr” in
the Indo-European tongue. Asshur or Tyr was worshipped as the god
of war by all the ancient world. His name was placed on the THIRD
DAY of the week — called “Tuesday” in the English-speaking
world. Tuesday is Asshur’s day.
Tuesday is from an old Saxon word meaning “Tiw’s day.” Tiw
was the god of war of the Germanic people of Europe. Tiw, or
Tiwe, was also known by the name Tyr — that is, Asshur. Tiw is
another name of Asshur! The Assyrians knew Asshur or Tyr was
their ancestor. We should expect, therefore, that when they
migrated to Europe they would still be known as the sons of Tyr
or Tiw, that is, Asshur. And what do we find?
When the Germans appeared in Europe, they claimed Tyr or Tiw
as their ancestor! But what has the name “Deutsch” to do with
Tiw?
The modern German word “Deutsch” — as educated Germans know
– is derived from the old Anglo-Saxon word Tiw. (See any
thorough book on etymology and word derivations.) Whenever a
German calls himself Deutsch, he is saying he is Tiw’s or
Asshur’s son — an Assyrian. And when he terms his country
Deutschland, he is saying Tiw’s or Asshur’s land — Assyria!
Even ancient Hindu literature uses both the word “Asgras”
and “Daityas” to refer to the Assyrians. “Daityas” is but a
Sanskrit word for “Deutsch” — a name applied to the Assyrians
over 1500 years BC


And, as for your romantic idea of "democracy" and your blind willingness to stand up and fight to the death it it's defense..I refer to the words of Benjamin Franklin,

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."

Democracy only works when the Majority are Christian and honest. Democracy under the direction(control) of Corrupt leaders is how we now have so many despots running Mineral rich nations. they were democratically elected and the world accepts their rulership. this is why it is folley to Force democracy on third world Nations.

Gregor had it right, Jesus is the only answer and when the Kingdom of God Comes to this earth, we will finally have the ONLY effective and workable form of Government. that is a completely incorruptable and BENEVOLENT Dictator who's Laws will be Obeyed fully and completely and who's judgments will be final and uncontested

and Yin717.. yes my friend, it is a Grand Hope!

Blessings

For those who don't understand why Micha referenced Herbert Armstrong, here is why we should understand who represents "Assyria" in terms of the last days events of the bible..

God remarkably identifies the players in the final conflagration and the most troublesome are the modern day ancestors of Assyria, the Nation of War making brutes who were responsable for the FIRST major defeat and subsequent captivity of ancient Israel , the Ten Northern tribes.( not to be mistaken fot the nation of JUDAH, the JEWS) they went into a different captivity at the hand of the Babylonians over a hundred and thirty years LATER.

God has a particular interest in the Germans, he has given them certain qualities and skills. he refers to them as both the "work of My hands" and also as "the ROD of My anger" this is why they not only create the worlds BEST machinery as well as art,literature, music and culture, but are at the same time the most brutal and EFFICIENT war making men on earth.

just look at history and look at their achievements today and you will see a remarkable people with an undeniable character.

we are all free to believe what we want and we are also free to ignor the facts and allow history to repeat itself.

Blessings

Originally Posted by Micha

I'm not old enough to have experienced the cold war. But yes, I would have fought against communism in defense of democracy. I do not hate fascism. Hatred makes you blind and is not a particularly good way to relate to a possible threat.

If I tolerate Communism? I am a member of a conservative party and communism as such should be my natural enemy. But I do not see it this way. I fortunately live in a democratic society which is strong enough to hold many views. I tolerate and respect your right to be a Fascist / a Nazi / a Communist, or a religious fundamentalist, whether you are Christian, Jew or Muslim. But you should also be aware that I will fight them all with words, every time they are trying to advocate for their beliefs. And if some of you are trying, with violent means to overthrow democracy, I will fight you with weapons in hand. My attitude to totalitarian ideologies, whether political, religious or both, is that they are a contempt for life and is an escape from all the complex problems inherent in democracy and freedom. Fascism enslaves the population whereas in a democracy are we free to create our own society.

just to say- please ignore my previous post relating to the matter (joke)
Very good points stressed and agreed!

I'll try and keep it simple and on topic.

No, Germany will not rise for a fourth time. They are a smart bunch of people who remember that the last time left their country in absolute ruins. And they also know that after a fourth time, there will be probably no country left to love.

And for our fascist friend; fascism is a young ideology for grown up children, who are frustrated that they didn't get what they want. For some reason all is fair, as long as they are in power. After they screwed up things and picked fights with way bigger adversaries, they show themselves to be poor sportsmen too. They whine continuously and want another go at things. The fascists had their 15 minutes of fame and made a huge mess of things (to say it politely). Sorry, you had your change so let's stick with a system that isn't perfect either but has been working for the past 2500 years...

@Seventrumps

This is the worst time nonsense and distortion of German history.

And with regard to democracy and Religion. A state should never be based on a religion and so-called Holy Scriptures should never manage the life of the people. Religion is open to a person’s/religious teacher’s interpretation and herein, lays the danger. If you have a fanatical teacher, he will impart their fanatical views to their followers.

All Holy Books are written by man, I have yet to find proof that God himself wrote these books All these Holy Books were written by mere mortals who supposedly were inspired by and were messengers from God. Question…Who made them God’s messengers? Answer….They were all self-appointed!

Religion has been used for centuries as a form of subjugation and mind control. Religion preys on the weak and feeble-minded by feeding into their insecurities. Religion is NOT a unifier but rather a divider…for whether we are honest enough to admit it or not…it does breed discrimination and intolerance. The terms gentile, kafir, heathen are all proof of this discrimination! Why is it that it is politically incorrect to use the word ‘******’ or ‘Chink’ but it is socially acceptable to use terms such as ‘kafir’? Isn’t it exactly the same? Also a form of discrimination? One is racially related whilst the other has a religious connotation…the end result is exactly the same!!! Discrimination and intolerance…

Religion is like an exclusive club…either you belong and are fully accepted OR you don’t belong and thus scorned and made to feel less worthy than the ‘exclusive set’. Some misguided Christians actually believe that irrespective of whether you are a ‘good person’ or not, you don’t stand a chance of entering heaven unless you belong to their ‘exclusive club’. Hmmm….mind boggling stupidity, perhaps?!
The more I think about….Wouldn’t it be wonderful to have a world where religion becomes totally superfluous? A world where a person is measured by their moral conscience rather than their religious affiliation? A world that is mature enough to say ‘NO’ to the divisiveness of religion?

Welcome to my perfect Utopia….a world without religion!

A bit provocative and just as unattainable as your vision!

Back to the topic here's why some think Germany will rise again - then you can judge for yourself.

http://www.thetrumpet.com/index.php?k=84&p=1

“The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it comes stronger than their democratic state itself. That, in its essence, is fascism - ownership of government by an individual, by a group,”
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Originally Posted by seventrumps

God has a particular interest in the Germans, he has given them certain qualities and skills. he refers to them as both the "work of My hands" and also as "the ROD of My anger" this is why they not only create the worlds BEST machinery as well as art,literature, music and culture, but are at the same time the most brutal and EFFICIENT war making men on earth.
Blessings

Wow, I can't believe that I missed this one. Are you serious? I reckon that you must be... Why on earth would God bestow the Germans with certain qualities and skills? Before 1871 there wasn't a Germany to begin with, let alone Germans. So why did the Almighty wait thousands of years to create these übermenschen.

And then I haven't gone into the discussion whether some art, music or culture is better than others. Isn't that in the eye of the beholder? Or if you so please in His eye?

Seventrumps knowledge of the Nordic / Germanic mythology is wrong.
This is what he builds his historical knowledge of Germany on.

http://www.asmallvoice.org/id30.html

I am not sure whether to laugh or to sudder. To use this as a scientific source on the ascension of German power... well it seems a trifle far fetched. Who is this Dr. Hoeh? And in what is he a Phd? This Ambassador College is run by his "church", how easy can it be to attain a PhD in what they want to hear?

In short: what a load of bollocks (can I say that?) I mean how can you take crap like this serious:

Its citizens, the Germans, felt themselves true Romans and bearers of the Christian Reich or Kingdom. They were therefore the chosen people of the Christian era, entrusted with a world-mission to be the protectors of Christianity.

How does he know how ancient Germans felt? The choices of the Pope are more than once controversial, so how come the Germans (which at that time didn't excist) be the chosen people of a world that consisted of only three continents. The other two weren't discovered yet.....

In short; stop believing such rubbish!