Will China unite with Taiwan peacefully? - Page 9




View Poll Results :I think China will unite with Taiwan peacefully
YES, a decade later 11 21.15%
YES, more than two or three decades later 16 30.77%
YES, but beyond my lifetime 2 3.85%
NO. China is interested to use force 23 44.23%
Voters: 52. You may not vote on this poll

 
--
Boots
 
November 11th, 2004  
Ezechiel
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010
Yeah, hope you're right about that. In the "True History of Taiwan" link, Formosan seemed to have good access to one side of the story, but he only posted once and never again.

Seems that there should be some English translations of those histories. I'll look around I guess.
About that HISTORY matter. I can tell u China have more formally authority over Taiwan.

As I told u, the formal controling of Taiwan started in MING DYNASTY,not Qing. MING DYNASTY is a HAN CHINESE DYNASTY and do u think THAT'S NOT CHINA's LAND?

Why do u try to ignore the history that happened in Qing Dynasty, Gumingdang (nationalist) authority over it?

Today Taiwan government are controled by the people whose ancester came from Fujien in MING DYNASTY. And who brought the government systems? CHIANG KAI SHEK FROM CHINA MAINLAND!

The dutch came to Formosa, what can it meant to be? The Dutch also came and conquer the Melacca Empire, does this means it belongs to Dutch land?

And if u said the MAJOR DYNASTIES CONTROL, I wonder China Dynasty had ever got the Hong Kong in those major dynasties. If it goes like this, can u say Hong Kong not belongs to China?

The government in Taiwan r Illegal, Chinese have very good defend point on this becoz of the History Record. The westerners do not have right to say Taiwan is a country becoz they never have those records before. Maybe u know,but u ignore.

Imagine if American civil war end in a result which one of the side retreat back to a territory and built a government there,claim that they are a country. This make sense?Ofcourse it's illegal.

If Gumingdang were totally destroy by Communist in the civil war and take over Taiwan, where do they get a single condition to claim that they r a country?

Don't ignore the history where between 1945-1949 Taiwan is officially belongs to China without doubt. I feel that u just trying to ignore those history record and talk about other things like FORMOSA..................
November 11th, 2004  
Asskicker
 
good one bro

and by the way,
the direct adminstration starts already from Yuan Dynasty
so Taiwan is sure China's
November 11th, 2004  
Ezechiel
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asskicker
good one bro

and by the way,
the direct adminstration starts already from Yuan Dynasty
so Taiwan is sure China's
Looking further, don't think Yuan is that official. As u know the Mongolians r kind of "conquer,rob,gone from there" type of people. Yuan is not included in my opinion.

Is there a record about Taiwan in Sung Dynasty?

Taiwan were not a colony. So why do they have the right to get independence?
--
Boots
November 11th, 2004  
Asskicker
 
since there r not much civilized ppl (not including the natives in Taiwan) during Song dynasty, taiwan and the islands around it are always viewed as a part of Fujian Province during probably Song dynasty or before that

Well, i have to say although Yuan is governed by Mongolians, all the advisers, upper class, decision making groups are Hans, and the tradition of Hans were respected and carried on.

the adminstraion established by Yuan Dynasty is probably first written record of a direct administraion structure of Taiwan...
maybe there are earlier and i dont know much about that
November 11th, 2004  
godofthunder9010
 
 
Firstly, I want it to be better understood where I'm coming from in all this. There are two sides to every story. So its stated repeatedly -- "Taiwan is part of China, they have no right to be anything else." Lets be honest for a moment -- that's an extremely bold statement. We have the voice of the PRC and those others in favor of reunification in more than sufficient quantity. The other side of the story is being neglected, and you're never going to truly understand anything without seeing it from all sides (if possible).

My feeling is that, because of threat of attack, it would be very unwise for Taiwan to declare independence. If I were advising their government, I'd tell them its never going to lead to any sort of good outcome. But there, we're talking about an overwhelming military threat, not right or wrong.

The moment that somebody says, "Taiwan is irrefutabely a part of China because ..." and they give historical, cultural or other reasons ... well, they've opened the whole thing to discussion. Not only that, the mainland China side of the story has stated that their point of view is "undeniable", "ironclad", "indisputable", "absolute truth", etc. There are very few things in this world that are absolute truth and in this case there is an opposing side that has some good points in their favor. So long as all sides remain civil, I think it is beneficial to explore the whole matter from all sides and not just one point of view.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezechiel
About that HISTORY matter. I can tell u China have more formally authority over Taiwan.

As I told u, the formal controling of Taiwan started in MING DYNASTY,not Qing. MING DYNASTY is a HAN CHINESE DYNASTY and do u think THAT'S NOT CHINA's LAND?
I understand that part, but remember that it was at ther very end of the Ming Dynasty from what you've said. Also, the purpose the Ming had in mind in going to Formosa was quite similar to Chaing Kaishek -- he picked an easily dominated land as a falling back point and apparently hoped that he could use the island of Formosa to eventually regain control over the mainland. Do you honestly think he cared about Formosa beyond that? I can't read a dead man's mind, but I doubt it. Just like Chaing, his eye was probably only on retaking control of the mainland. Formosa was just a means to that end.

Quote:
Why do u try to ignore the history that happened in Qing Dynasty, Gumingdang (nationalist) authority over it?
I'm not ignoring the Qing. I'm saying that you have one Chinese Dynasty that truly asserted control over the island of Formosa and yet virtually every other Dynasty of China almost completely ignored it. Also, since you brought it up, lets not forget that the Qing is not a "Han Chinese" Dynasty. They were a foreign occupation that didn't eventually die out like the Yuan did. Still, because they lasted so long there is no choice -- you have to count them as an "official" Dynasty, but there's certainly room for debate on that point.

Still consider that there are plenty of very non-Chinese lands and peoples that were dominated by the Qing Dynasty. Lets face it, they were a lot like the Mongols. They were very interested in carving out the most enormous empire possible. They weren't asking the question, "Do we have a right to contol that? Is it supposed to be party of China?" They just conquered whatever they could. Just because they used the Chinese systems and culture doens't make them any different than the Yuan except for one thing -- they lasted a very long time. For that reason, I'm of the opinion that saying, "You see, that was controlled by the Qing Dynasty, so they HAVE to be part of China!!" just isn't logical. That's my opinion. Nobody has bothered to explain why I'm wrong on this point.

Quote:
Today Taiwan government are controled by the people whose ancester came from Fujien in MING DYNASTY. And who brought the government systems? CHIANG KAI SHEK FROM CHINA MAINLAND!
"Because you are decended from ethnic group X, you're not allowed to NOT be governed by them." Nonsense! "Because you improved yourself and way of life from culture X, you are required submit yourself to that culture's current government without question." Again, pure nonsense! "Because you speak language X, you belong to the nation where that language originates." What would the world look like today if we applied that rule? The other rules? For one, Spain, France and England would be ENORMOUS and the USA would not exist. Lets be realistic.

Quote:
The dutch came to Formosa, what can it meant to be? The Dutch also came and conquer the Melacca Empire, does this means it belongs to Dutch land?
My only point about the Dutch controlled it prior to the Qing. Still lets face it: The island of Formosa - Taiwan - has been a war trophy of sorts that kept getting passed around. Ming, Dutch, Qing, Japan, ROC ... they've seen more than their share of inconsistency.

But on that point, please feel free to explain how Qing and Ming control were any different from European colonialism? The inhabitants of Taiwan didn't fire off an invitation to China saying, "Come conquer us, we're hopelessly lost without you!" anymore than did North and South America, Australia, Ireland, Scotland, etc. In both cases we see a degree of exploitation, but a much much stronger beneficial result in both Europe and Qing China's versions of colonialism. And lets face it, the word "colonialism" means sending your people over there to settle and live.

Quote:
And if u said the MAJOR DYNASTIES CONTROL, I wonder China Dynasty had ever got the Hong Kong in those major dynasties. If it goes like this, can u say Hong Kong not belongs to China?
Well, we're not talking about Hong Kong, now are we? In the case of Hong Kong, you had an agreement between the UK and the Qing (it was the dowager-Empress, was it not?) to lease Hong Kong until a specific date. The fact that the government that the UK made the agreement with (the Qing) no longer existed could have potentially offered an excuse for not handing back. They did the honorable thing and handed it back to the People's Republic of China -- the Chinese government officially recognize by the UK.

In the case of Taiwan, they got taken from the loser (Japan) and handed to one of the victors. Was this because the other victorious allies recognized it as being an unquestioned part of China or was it because China wanted it and they were closer than anyone else? Nobody ever made any sort of agreement to eventually return Taiwan to Chinese control, it was just handed over. The course of events that happened after that have dictated the rest.

The big problem I'm seeing is that China seems to think its an exception to all the "rules". Plenty of empires have come and gone in the world, and their existence and borders force no obligation onto anyone -- EXCEPT CHINA. Why is that exactly?

Quote:
The government in Taiwan r Illegal
Illegal based on what system of laws? For one thing, Taiwan has never acknowledged Bejing's current government's control over them. They have never been under the control of the PRC ... ever. Not even a little bit. So "illegal according to the PRC and its laws" doesn't really apply to them. So what laws are we talking about?

Quote:
Chinese have very good defend point on this becoz of the History Record. The westerners do not have right to say Taiwan is a country becoz they never have those records before. Maybe u know,but u ignore.
Again the statement is being made that China is somehow unique and that the world must rewrite the "rules" to accomodate them. Every shred of "historical proof" type of reasoning offered could be applied to some other land or nation that is now undisputedly an independent nation. Australia and Ireland are very good examples for instance. And besides all that, since when does "historical record" constitute "absolute uncontestable obligation"??

Quote:
Imagine if American civil war end in a result which one of the side retreat back to a territory and built a government there,claim that they are a country. This make sense?Ofcourse it's illegal.
There's a very significant difference. The South had willingly submitted itself to the government of the United States of America. They willingly became a part of it, and obligated themselves to remain a part of it in adopting the Constitution of the United States. Taiwan has never submitted itself the PRC, its government, its rule nor its constitution. So those are two very different situations.

Quote:
If Gumingdang were totally destroy by Communist in the civil war and take over Taiwan, where do they get a single condition to claim that they r a country?
Irrelevant since that isn't what happened.

Quote:
Don't ignore the history where between 1945-1949 Taiwan is officially belongs to China without doubt. I feel that u just trying to ignore those history record and talk about other things like FORMOSA..................
Right, they belonged to the Republic of China, and officially they still do. I use the word "Formosa" because that is the name of the island. That was its name when it was considered part of China, was it not? But it doesn't matter to me what we call them. If you prefer "Taiwan", that's fine with me.

Incidentally, what would the reaction be if the Republic of China dropped the name "Taiwan" and "Formosa", retained the name ROC and just declared themselves an independent Chinese nation??

Ezcheziel, Asskicker, Frog, all others -- I'm happy that the discussion has remained polite (for a change). I hope that my statements make you think, and don't just make you mad. If I'm only causing anger, then I don't think the discussion ought to be allowed to continue.
November 11th, 2004  
Asskicker
 
i have to tell u, the most reliable primary source to study chinese history is 24 Shi, it is the offical wrttien data (not by Communists) but by the acient scholars of different dynasties
according it, China established direct administration in taiwan as early as Yuan dynasty, some may say even Song dynasty (i said this probably 4 times, no one listens) also according to some DI Fang Zhi (local history wrttien records)
from the length of time, it should belong to china

talk about taiwan government today is illegal..Japan gives back Taiwan to the LEGIMINATE government of China in the treaty after WW2,
LEGIMINATE---is a government represents only a tiny part of chinese population the legiminate government of China??????
is a government only recgnonized by a few small nations in the world a legininate government of China???
NO>> thereofre, the taiwan government doesn't even have the right to stay on that soil, they invaded it, it belongs to PRC, the true government of CHina --represents 1.3 billion ppl and recgnonized by 160 nations
November 12th, 2004  
godofthunder9010
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asskicker
i have to tell u, the most reliable primary source to study chinese history is 24 Shi, it is the offical wrttien data (not by Communists) but by the acient scholars of different dynasties
according it, China established direct administration in taiwan as early as Yuan dynasty, some may say even Song dynasty (i said this probably 4 times, no one listens) also according to some DI Fang Zhi (local history wrttien records)
from the length of time, it should belong to china
I know that both the Han did setup some administrative posts in there. We're talking about something pretty benign, a lot like having a foreign embassy. If the Tang and Song did similar things, it surprise me, but I'm not for sure sure on it.

Quote:
talk about taiwan government today is illegal..Japan gives back Taiwan to the LEGIMINATE government of China in the treaty after WW2,
LEGIMINATE---is a government represents only a tiny part of chinese population the legiminate government of China??????
Like I've already said repeatedly, the ROC's claim to be the "official" government thing is PURE NONSENSE. Unfortunately, hundreds of nations used to recognize that government as the "official government". (By the way, the Japanese were forced to return the island to the Nationalist government, which was thought to be the government in control at the time.)

Now that the world has pretty well acknowledged the obvious truth, it's left Taiwan stuck in a messy situation. They know that they are not the "official government" of China, but if are not VERY CAREFUL how they go about withdrawing that claim, mainland China will invade them. Its really a no win situation for them.


Quote:
is a government only recgnonized by a few small nations in the world a legininate government of China???
Not anymore its not. Lets face it, the fact that the Taipei government was officially recognized as the true government of China by most of the world for several decades makes "official recognition" come out as a completely unreliable method for determining much of anything. If "official recognition" buys into ridiculous fairy tales to that level ... if it has so often failed to recognize REALLY OBVIOUS realities ... then its no good for proving much of anything.

Currently, Taiwan is officially recognized as being a controlled by the People's Republic of China by most of the world. The world's "Official Recognition" fails to admit reality again -- the People's Republic of China doesn't control it. It never has. In fact, the PRC would have to invade Taiwan if they wanted to execize any control over it -- except for using threats to try to influence what the government there does. That's no more control than Nazi Germany held over France before invading. The People's Republic of China has no control over Taiwan today. That's the real life situation as it stands today.

"Official Recognition" has failed to acknowledge the reality of the Taiwan question before and its officially doing it now. Why trust something so unreliable?

Quote:
NO>> thereofre, the taiwan government doesn't even have the right to stay on that soil
As long as they are the Republic of China, their claim is pretty solid -- that's the government Taiwan was handed over to after all. Whether they have an absolute right to exist? That's a difficult thing to define I guess, but the fact is that they do exist and they do occupy that soil.

Quote:
they invaded it
No, they already controlled it. The Nationalist forces just retreated to Taiwan when they realized they couldn't beat the Communist forces.

Quote:
it belongs to PRC, the true government of CHina --represents 1.3 billion ppl and recgnonized by 160 nations
Well, it never has TRULY belonged to the PRC or there wouldn't be a Taiwanese government there at all. I believe I've already covered the reliability of "official recognition".
November 12th, 2004  
SAINT
 
taking back Taiwan is just an excuse by China to equip itself with lots and lots of armament.

To be like the Imperialist Japan to attack Asia, perhaps, is the main aim?

If China attacks Taiwan, I think Taiwan will just surrender after some resistance.

There're a lot of secret deals behind doors between China and Taiwan which people won't ever know.

Otherwise will ROC president Chen be so bold at times to speak against China? He might as well keep quiet.

It's a political act or show to make the people of China stay focused on Taiwan and curse the ROC government. In doing so, the Chinese government (with its corruption and bribery problems) will seem good in the eyes of the Chinese people.
November 12th, 2004  
godofthunder9010
 
 
I dunno about your conspiracy theory there Saint but I gotta agree with you on one point -- the people of China get violently angry when anybody stick the words "Taiwan" and "independence" in the same sentence. Much more angry than would seem reasonable. I'm not going to speculate on why.
November 12th, 2004  
Ezechiel
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010
The moment that somebody says, "Taiwan is irrefutabely a part of China because ..." and they give historical, cultural or other reasons ... well, they've opened the whole thing to discussion. Not only that, the mainland China side of the story has stated that their point of view is "undeniable", "ironclad", "indisputable", "absolute truth", etc. There are very few things in this world that are absolute truth and in this case there is an opposing side that has some good points in their favor. So long as all sides remain civil, I think it is beneficial to explore the whole matter from all sides and not just one point of view.
Identity of a country came from those criteria. Culture,history record,races r the very important sources to prove it's a country there or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010
I understand that part, but remember that it was at ther very end of the Ming Dynasty from what you've said. Also, the purpose the Ming had in mind in going to Formosa was quite similar to Chaing Kaishek -- he picked an easily dominated land as a falling back point and apparently hoped that he could use the island of Formosa to eventually regain control over the mainland. Do you honestly think he cared about Formosa beyond that? I can't read a dead man's mind, but I doubt it. Just like Chaing, his eye was probably only on retaking control of the mainland. Formosa was just a means to that end.
First,Formosa is not the name of Taiwan. It's a name given by Dutch. If u want to argue about the name of Taiwan. I can tell u that mustl be an even earlier name than that Formosa.

Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010
I'm not ignoring the Qing. I'm saying that you have one Chinese Dynasty that truly asserted control over the island of Formosa and yet virtually every other Dynasty of China almost completely ignored it. Also, since you brought it up, lets not forget that the Qing is not a "Han Chinese" Dynasty. They were a foreign occupation that didn't eventually die out like the Yuan did. Still, because they lasted so long there is no choice -- you have to count them as an "official" Dynasty, but there's certainly room for debate on that point.
The main reason why majority of the China dynasties ignore it were becoz the main activities were gathered in the Mainland side. Later on in Ming time, the Chinese came to Taiwan and many Immigrants from Fujien mainland came and stay there. Taiwan were governed by Ming as it was under the territory of Fujien Province. U think Hong Kong were also controled by China for many dynasties?

Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010
Still consider that there are plenty of very non-Chinese lands and peoples that were dominated by the Qing Dynasty. Lets face it, they were a lot like the Mongols. They were very interested in carving out the most enormous empire possible. They weren't asking the question, "Do we have a right to contol that? Is it supposed to be party of China?" They just conquered whatever they could. Just because they used the Chinese systems and culture doens't make them any different than the Yuan except for one thing -- they lasted a very long time. For that reason, I'm of the opinion that saying, "You see, that was controlled by the Qing Dynasty, so they HAVE to be part of China!!" just isn't logical. That's my opinion. Nobody has bothered to explain why I'm wrong on this point.
As I have told u that, The Manchurian in the early stage were not considered as a Chinese formally in ths history before Qing Dynasty(Before Qing Dynasty the Chinese history record call Manchurian as foreign tribe). But when they settle down in China as Qing dynasty for a certain period. They started to be admit as one of the Chinese historical record. The prove is, Han Chinese in anceint time respect and faithful to the Qing Emperor, also they were many Han Chinese officials in the Qing Government. Even during the revolutional time. Many Han Chinese suggested to remain the Emperor stayed on the sit as the King.

U must be talking about the Outer-Mongolia, Indo-China area, and Russia-China area. These few cases happened becoz of the Western Iperialis who coz the situation happen. Formal Govern control on those area should have been a part of China if the Western Imperialist never came. Just becoz some Western Imperialist came and made those territory lost doesn't means that it can be taken as an example u debate for Taiwan cases.

Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010
Because you are decended from ethnic group X, you're not allowed to NOT be governed by them." Nonsense! "Because you improved yourself and way of life from culture X, you are required submit yourself to that culture's current government without question." Again, pure nonsense! "Because you speak language X, you belong to the nation where that language originates." What would the world look like today if we applied that rule? The other rules? For one, Spain, France and England would be ENORMOUS and the USA would not exist. Lets be realistic.
I never say JUST BECOZ. The racial matter is one of the criteria why Taiwan belongs to China. I had answer u this. THIS IS ONE OF THE ALL REASONS,NOT ALL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010
My only point about the Dutch controlled it prior to the Qing. Still lets face it: The island of Formosa - Taiwan - has been a war trophy of sorts that kept getting passed around. Ming, Dutch, Qing, Japan, ROC ... they've seen more than their share of inconsistency.
Behold, before Formosa it had been a name for Taiwan by Chinese. Remember Asskicker told u that Yuan controled Taiwan before?

Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010
But on that point, please feel free to explain how Qing and Ming control were any different from European colonialism? The inhabitants of Taiwan didn't fire off an invitation to China saying, "Come conquer us, we're hopelessly lost without you!" anymore than did North and South America, Australia, Ireland, Scotland, etc. In both cases we see a degree of exploitation, but a much much stronger beneficial result in both Europe and Qing China's versions of colonialism. And lets face it, the word "colonialism" means sending your people over there to settle and live.
This we also already talked about it before. I stay in Malaysia,.and important colonial area for the British. Let me show u what the difference between it :

Politically : they were not given any chance to be politician. Pressured down by Britsh, and before the coming of Imperialist they already have the POlitical system. The coming of Western imperialist took over the Politic power from the Local Kings. Kings do not have right to get taxes,no reality power except be the "LEADER OF THE LOCAL RELIGION AND TRADITION". Do Taiwan have those political system before China came? NO. And the people of Taiwan were given chance to be politician in China mainland.

The Human Basic rights : Colonial ppl were second class people and they were not the normal. THEY WERE NOT AS GOOD AS THOSE WHITE MAN. Simple, it's call RACISM. In Philipine there were first class Christian and Second class Christians(Local people) somemore. Did this happened in Taiwan?

Economic and social developement : Imperialist came to other ppl's land, they took over all the local natural resources, forbidden local people to do plantation. And they took all the Good Soils for their Economic plantation, leaving bad soils for the local people. They got all the money, develope their own homeland. And what did the local people actually get? This is EXPLOITATION. Did China ever do this to Taiwan?

Scotland,Ireland,explain to u togather with Australia down there


Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010
Well, we're not talking about Hong Kong, now are we? In the case of Hong Kong, you had an agreement between the UK and the Qing (it was the dowager-Empress, was it not?) to lease Hong Kong until a specific date. The fact that the government that the UK made the agreement with (the Qing) no longer existed could have potentially offered an excuse for not handing back. They did the honorable thing and handed it back to the People's Republic of China -- the Chinese government officially recognize by the UK.
Hong Kong case and Taiwan case were quite similiar.

Taiwan were given back to China formally after 1945. They got back their lost land.There were an international agreement there. The whole world agree with this. Althought they didn't give some real date or blablablablabla. But this has been admit that Taiwan was a lost land of China by the whole world. Becoz of this, China got the right back to govern Taiwan. The case of Taiwan and Hong Kong were the same generally.

Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010
In the case of Taiwan, they got taken from the loser (Japan) and handed to one of the victors. Was this because the other victorious allies recognized it as being an unquestioned part of China or was it because China wanted it and they were closer than anyone else? Nobody ever made any sort of agreement to eventually return Taiwan to Chinese control, it was just handed over. The course of events that happened after that have dictated the rest.
Ofcourse it was becoz Taiwan belongs to China! Don't coma out with something (China wanted taiwan, so China get it) nonsense like this.I tell u, through the history u discover China had actually lost many territory becoz of the Western imperialist came over and did many bad things. Not only Taiwan were lsot. Outer Mongolia, Indo-China, Russia-China area also.

The Paris peace agreement after WW I was a good example how the Western world and the arse Japanese threaten China. Every victory side were given all the benefits but except China, who just wanted the territory conquered by German back (Forgot the places name). Who give a damn to this? China got nothing. And this incident contributed to the China 4th May patriotism compaign. And in year 1931, Japanese went to occupied North-East China. Who gave a damn?

Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010
The big problem I'm seeing is that China seems to think its an exception to all the "rules". Plenty of empires have come and gone in the world, and their existence and borders force no obligation onto anyone -- EXCEPT CHINA. Why is that exactly?
European and China history were much way different generally. China's country identity were more stable clearere than European, basically the Europea history were full of Chaos. There were actually as well happened to some territory conflict in Europe. But they settle it in violent way. And for this PROBLEM, I can tell u the European nations use even more of the racial,history , and real politic concept to strenthern u that.

Nowadays, how do we settle the territory problem? Ofcoz we will not be using military power like what happened in old time. It's law. Then in the way of law, what is the most suitable things? History! Today Malaysia and Singapore ARE having conflict over an Island named Batu Putih (White Stone). We already appealed it to International court to settle this . Both sides claimed the island base on History record. Without History record how do we settle this out?

If u saying this PROBLEM. It's even easier for me to debate. Becoz if u claiming this, u are denying history record, u r denying law. And since that, Military occupation is simply the only way to be accepted (European countries settled Territorial problem wif Military in the anceint time). Then what's wrong if China settle it in Military occupied way? Is this unlawful and ilegal? YES!Then what is the best way? TAKE OUT HISTORY RECORD AND CHECK! THE CONTROL OF CHINA OVER TAIWAN WERE VERY NEW AND LATEST.

Illegal based on what system of laws? For one thing, Taiwan has never acknowledged Bejing's current government's control over them. They have never been under the control of the PRC ... ever. Not even a little bit. So "illegal according to the PRC and its laws" doesn't really apply to them. So what laws are we talking about?

Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010
Again the statement is being made that China is somehow unique and that the world must rewrite the "rules" to accomodate them. Every shred of "historical proof" type of reasoning offered could be applied to some other land or nation that is now undisputedly an independent nation. Australia and Ireland are very good examples for instance. And besides all that, since when does "historical record" constitute "absolute uncontestable obligation"??
The Way European decided their Country were base on Military conquer in the old time. Today the world gose with Law,not Military. Settle it in peace way need History record.

Australia-- do u what was those Australian's identity in the old time? They were criminals sent by British over to an Abandon land. Did they give them a good care? No. Once again they use Colonise.

Irish -- I believe they were not English. They were juz an own race theirselves. Becoz of this they tried to independent. Isn't it truth?

Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010
There's a very significant difference. The South had willingly submitted itself to the government of the United States of America. They willingly became a part of it, and obligated themselves to remain a part of it in adopting the Constitution of the United States. Taiwan has never submitted itself the PRC, its government, its rule nor its constitution. So those are two very different situations.
Taiwan never submited becoz in the time 1945-1949 they were a part of China and be governed by them. So why do there have to submit here and there? South and North having conflict becoz of the Black men's human rights problem, so can be solved and merge in better ways . But now the conflict between China and Taiwan were becoz of the Political problem. Communism and Democratics, u think they can solve and merged ?

In the time after 1945. Taiwanese were willingly to be governed by Chinese. After the civil war, year 1949. The governemnt started to brainwash their own people and try make to be different from Chinese. Recently they wanted to deny Sun Yat Seng as the founding father. They set the China history as foreign history. This is what we can see, they r trying all the effort to be different from Chinese. What makes them do so? The acts of a small group of damned persons did those things and effect everything. Li Deng Hui is one of them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010
Irrelevant since that isn't what happened.
U can't say so. Becoz this is the very important point of the whole story. With this question, it shows that why and how the Taiwan political system were illegal. And with this Questian we know that Taiwan and China were separated becoz of Political conflict, not the Historical, not racial, not colonialism reasons. This question shows us WHY TAIWAN BELONGS TO CHINA.


Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010
Right, they belonged to the Republic of China, and officially they still do. I use the word "Formosa" because that is the name of the island. That was its name when it was considered part of China, was it not? But it doesn't matter to me what we call them. If you prefer "Taiwan", that's fine with me.
Formosa was the name of the island given by dutch. China before this ofcoz had given it a name. As ASSKICKER also told u that China had the record about taiwan in Yuan Dynasty. Which few hundreds years before Dutch came to Taiwan. So which name is right? China ofcoz had a name for Taiwan before it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010
Incidentally, what would the reaction be if the Republic of China dropped the name "Taiwan" and "Formosa", retained the name ROC and just declared themselves an independent Chinese nation??
Before "Taiwan" ,Chinese had already given a name for Taiwan long time ago, in Yuan(before 1200 a.c) ,and I can tell u it's even older than Yuan. Taiwan was more a newer name there called by Chinese.

Don't know about Asskicker and others. But I am surely not the one who talk badly to u. We only have some difference in thinking. Just discussing about it. So nothing to be angry about.