Will China unite with Taiwan peacefully? - Page 3




View Poll Results :I think China will unite with Taiwan peacefully
YES, a decade later 11 21.15%
YES, more than two or three decades later 16 30.77%
YES, but beyond my lifetime 2 3.85%
NO. China is interested to use force 23 44.23%
Voters: 52. You may not vote on this poll

 
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Boots
 
October 22nd, 2004  
Chocobo_Blitzer
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkmb101
China could only unite with Taiwan peacefully if China recognizes Taiwan as its own country, which it doesnt.
I don't think that statement makes sense. Can you help me understand what you're getting at?
Maybe he's saying for China to go "okay, we see you're your own country..... but uh, join us, the red star is uh......stylish"
October 22nd, 2004  
Ezechiel
 
1.) Ofcoz this is not all to make Taiwan become a part of Taiwan. This is one of all the reasons that make Taiwan as a part of China.

2.) I did not say China invade Tibet was a right thing to do. But in the history and the ancient map of China. Tibet was consider as a part of their territory -- a self-governing territory. To talk about Blood, North China could be more mixture becoz trough history the local Han Chinese were alwayz invaded by another tribe and race. South China's Han Chinese r more pure (Fujien, Chaozhou, Guangdong, Changjiang Area). Taiwanese r from Fujien province. So they r still consider as a prt of Chinese.

In English, The concept of Chinese r more unclear comparing Mandarin. In Mandarin, u will discover the group which migrant from China to all over the world r called The Zhonghua race/tribe (They r Han Chinese, But in English u call the as Chinese). And another Chinese is China nation man, which we call China-man in Mandarin. So for this China-man it including Manchurian,Mongolians, Han Chinese and blablablablabla. But when u talk about the Chinese blood. Basically we name Han Chinese as the main one.

3.) First. In debate of this. U must know that Taiwan had been the territory of China in MING DYNASTY,then only they change to Qing Dynasty. And u say Qing Dynasty were governed by Manchurian, not well said-as a part of China. This is ofcoz a very wrong things to say. Becoz in the early period of Qing Dynasty, Manchurian did separated from the Han Chinese and not consider Chinese. But in the later 2-3 decades, inorder to rule the China smotthly, Manchurian changed theirselve by giving up their own language and use Mandarin as the official language. And evne later than that period. Manchurian and Han Chinese basically could match with each other, united togather, and build the same nation. So u can see many Han Chinese officiers in the Qing Dynasty period,including the loyalty ppl who planned to modernize Qing Dynasty(modernize Han and keep their loyalty to Emperor, not Sun Yat Seng's group), they also Han Chinese , from this occasion it shows that Manchurian and Han Chinese had been united under a same nationality. So they r consider as a part of China tribe.

U want to debate about the Roman empire and France imperialism over South East Asia? I suppose u find a wrong man. As Malaysia, my country,had became a part of British colonise plus I know about France conquer Vietnam history, let me show u what is the accept different between Chin-Taiwan and France IndoChina :

The defination of colony and imperialism -- What is a colony? A place where the Imperialist dig out all the resource for their Industry and economic developement. And the people there were taken as low class people consider their race. Colony were as well taken by imperialist becoz they could made it into a Trading port and Military base. Have u ever see a law of the Imperialist country state that people from Colony can be the Officier in the IMperialist own mother land? no, have u ever see the colony places been developed well and as advance as Imperialist mother land? No. So what about Roman empire? I tell u in the Roman empire time, They conquered a land, and exploite them economically. leave the land into a Wilderness and useless place without giving any developement.

Is Taiwan a Colony or a proper territory of China? ---- In Ming Dynmasty,after China taken back Taiwan in 1662, Court, ministry had been built in Taiwan. And the developement there were the same level as the developement in China mainland. Also, the local people of Taiwan got the same right and chance like the people in China mainland, they to get to the Capital to take the National Officiers Exeminations to be a politician/officiers. Also Taiwanese didn't specific as Colony civilians, they can move freely to China mainland as they want.

When u see the 1985 history. The old record stated that Taiwan were not a colony of China and then given to Japan. It's CHINA PROPER TERRITORY BEING CUT OFF TO THE JAPANESE. The same form as Hong Kong, can u say Hong Kong is a colony to China? no! it's proper territory to China.

There only one condition they can use to claim theirselve as a Independent country -- the politic body. Except the reason of politic body u can see anymore else good reason they claim Taiwan as independent country. For this has been insuffiecient to the Independent group, now they planned to change the history textbook sylybus.

before u all ask question about,who gets stronger military who can threaten who. Can I ask u a question that --

If Guomingdang did not lost the civil war in China, will Taiwan ever have chance to claim themselve as a independent country?
October 22nd, 2004  
Ezechiel
 
China's plan to remain Taiwan as a part of them were very caring and considerate -- The "one country 2 politic bodies" policy can use to this. I don't know whether u guyz had ever thought China will conquered Taiwan and turned it Taiwan into a Communist territory. But for sure I tell u, even China did conquered taiwan, China will still let Taiwan remain their decromatic system.
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Boots
October 22nd, 2004  
03USMC
 
 
Oh they will "reunite" all right. But not because Taiwan sees the "benefits of joining the Workers Paradise". It will be because several hundred T72'S a few thousand upright members of the Peoples Army have, "Shown them the benefits."
October 22nd, 2004  
Romero
 
 
It is a possibility, but will not happen for quite a while. I have a Taiwanese girlfriend and several Taiwanese friends and most dislike China, some even hate them. It is understandable. Most of my friends say they want to remain independent (or whatever they are now), but don't want to declare it, due to Chinese threats of invasion if they do. However, my Chinese friends believe Taiwan is rightfully theirs, and they should use force.

In time, with increased Taiwanese economic investment in China (and US support) I believe a resolution of some kind will be established, but I don't think there will be "one China two systems".

I started an argument once in a pub between my Chinese and Taiwanese friends when I brought the subject. About 15 people were involved. It wasn't pretty.
October 22nd, 2004  
03USMC
 
 
[quote="Romero"]they want to remain independent (or whatever they are now), but don't want to declare it, due to Chinese threats of invasion if they do. However, my Chinese friends believe Taiwan is rightfully theirs, and they should use force.

If China is as benevolent as they claim, why the aversion to independence?
What they want a two goverment China (read Puppet Goverment in Taiwan.)
October 22nd, 2004  
antimili
 
Taiwan -- an Inalienable Part of China
Lying off the southeastern coast of the China mainland, Taiwan is China's largest island and forms an integral whole with the mainland.

Taiwan has belonged to China since ancient times. It was known as Yizhou or Liuqiu in antiquities. Many historical records and annals documented the development of Taiwan by the Chinese people in earlier periods. References to this effect were to be found, among others, in Seaboard Geographic Gazetteer compiled more than 1,700 years ago by Shen Ying of the State of Wu during the period of the Three Kingdoms. This was the world's earliest written account of Taiwan. Several expeditions, each numbering over ten thousand men, had been sent to Taiwan by the State of Wu (third century A.D.) and the Sui Dynasty (seventh century A.D.) respectively. Since early seventeenth century the Chinese people began to step up the development of Taiwan. Their numbers topped one hundred thousand at the end of the century. By 1893 (19th year of the reign of Qing Emperor Guangxu) their population exceeded 2.54 million people in 507,000 or more households. That was a 25-fold increase in 200 years. They brought in a more advanced mode of production and settled the whole length and breadth of Taiwan. Thanks to the determined efforts and hard toil of the pioneers, the development of the island as a whole greatly accelerated. This was the historical fact of how Taiwan, like the other parts of China, came to be opened up and settled by the Chinese people of various nationalities. From the very beginning the Taiwan society derived from the source of the Chinese cultural tradition. This basic fact had not changed even during the half century of Japanese occupation. The history of Taiwan's development is imbued with the blood, sweat, and ingenuity of the Chinese people including the local ethnic minorities.

Chinese governments of different periods set up administrative bodies to exercise jurisdiction over Taiwan. As early as in the mid-12th century the Song Dynasty set up a garrison in Penghu, putting the territory under the jurisdiction of Jinjiang County of Fujian's Quanzhou Prefecture. The Yuan Dynasty installed an agency of patrol and inspection in Penghu to administer the territory. During the mid- and late 16th century the Ming Dynasty reinstated the once abolished agency and sent reinforcements to Penghu in order to ward off foreign invaders. In 1662 (first year of the reign of Qing Emperor Kangxi) General Zheng Chenggong (known in the West as Koxinga) instituted Chengtian Prefecture on Taiwan. Subsequently, the Qing government expanded the administrative structure in Taiwan, thereby strengthening its rule over the territory. In 1684 (23rd year of the reign of Emperor Kangxi) a Taiwan-Xiamen Patrol Command and a Taiwan Prefecture Administration were set up under the jurisdiction of Fujian Province. These in turn exercised jurisdiction over three counties on the island: Taiwan (present-day Tainan), Fengshan (present-day Gaoxiong) and Zhuluo (present-day Jiayi). In 1714 (53rd year of the reign of Emperor Kangxi) the Qing government ordered the mapping of Taiwan to determine its size. In 1721 (60th year of the reign of Emperor Kangxi) an office of imperial supervisor of inspecting Taiwan was created and the Taiwan-Xiamen Patrol Command was renamed Prefecture Administration of Taiwan and Xiamen, incorporating the subsequently-created Zhanghua County and Danshui Canton. In 1727 (5th year of the reign of Emperor Yongzheng) the administration on the island was reconstituted as the Prefecture Administration of Taiwan (which was later renamed Prefecture Command for Patrol of Taiwan) and incorporated the new Penghu Canton. The territory then became officially known as Taiwan. In order to upgrade the administration of Taiwan, the Qing government created Taibei Prefecture, Jilong Canton and three counties of Danshui, Xinzhu and Yilan in 1875 (1st year of the reign of Emperor Guangxu). In 1885 (11th year of the reign of Emperor Guangxu), the government formally made Taiwan a full province covering three prefectures and one subprefecture and incorporating 11 counties and 5 cantons. Liu Mingchuan was appointed first Governor of Taiwan. During his tenure of office, railways were laid, mines opened, telegraph service installed, merchant ships built, industries started and new-style schools set up. Considerable social, economic and cultural advancement in Taiwan was achieved as a result.

After the Chinese people's victory in the war against Japanese aggression in 1945, the Chinese government reinstated its administrative authority in Taiwan Province.


Chinese on both sides of the Taiwan Straits carried out a prolonged, unremitting struggle against foreign invasion and occupation of Taiwan. Since the late 15th century Western colonialists started to grab and conquer colonies in a big way. In 1624 (4th year of the reign of Ming Emperor Tianqi) Dutch colonialists invaded and occupied the southern part of Taiwan. Two years later Spanish colonialists seized the northern part of Taiwan. In 1642 (15th year of the reign of Ming Emperor Chongzhen) the Dutch evicted the Spaniards and took over north Taiwan. The Chinese people on both sides of the Straits waged various forms of struggle including armed insurrections against the invasion and occupation of Taiwan by foreign colonialists. In 1661 (18th year of the reign of Qing Emperor Shunzhi) General Zheng Chenggong (Koxinga) led an expedition to Taiwan and expelled the Dutch colonialists from the island in the following year.

Japan launched a war of aggression against China in 1894 (20th year of the reign of Qing Emperor Guangxu). In the ensuing year, as a result of defeat the Qing government was forced to sign the Treaty of Shimonoseki, ceding Taiwan to Japan. This wanton betrayal and humiliation shocked the whole nation and touched off a storm of protests. A thousand or more candidates from all 18 provinces including Taiwan who had assembled in Beijing for the Imperial Examination signed a strongly-worded petition opposing the ceding of Taiwan. In Taiwan itself, people wailed and bemoaned the betrayal and went on general strikes. General Liu Yongfu and others of the garrison command stood with Taiwan compatriots and put up a fierce fight against the Japanese landing forces. To support this struggle, people on the mainland, particularly in the southeastern region, showed their solidarity by generous donations or organizing volunteers to Taiwan to fight the Japanese forces. Taiwan compatriots never ceased their dauntless struggle throughout the Japanese occupation. Initially, they formed insurgent groups to wage guerrilla warfare for as long as seven years. When the Revolution of 1911 overthrew the Qing monarchy they in turn lent support to their mainland compatriots by staging more than a dozen armed insurrections. The 1920s and 1930s witnessed surging waves of mass action sweeping across the island against Japanese colonial rule.

In 1937 the Chinese people threw themselves into an all-out war of resistance against Japanese aggression. In its declaration of war against Japan, the Chinese Government proclaimed that all treaties, conventions, agreements, and contracts regarding relations between China and Japan, including the Treaty of Shimonoseki, had been abrogated. The declaration stressed that China would recover Taiwan, Penghu and the four northeastern provinces. After eight years of grueling war against Japanese aggression the Chinese people won final victory and recovered the lost territory of Taiwan in 1945. Taiwan compatriots displayed an outburst of passion and celebrated the great triumph of their return to the fold of the motherland by setting off big bangs of fireworks and performing rites to communicate the event to their ancestors.

The international community has acknowledged the fact that Taiwan belongs to China. The Chinese people's war of resistance against Japanese aggression, being part of the world-wide struggle against Fascism, received extensive support from people all over the world. During the Second World War China, the United States, the Soviet Union, Great Britain, France and others formed an alliance to oppose the Axis of Germany, Japan and Italy. The Cairo Declaration issued by China, the United States and Great Britain on 1 December 1943 stated: "It is the purpose of the three great Allies that Japan shall be stripped of all the islands in the Pacific which she has seized or occupied since the beginning of the First World War in 1914, and that all the territories Japan has stolen from the Chinese, such as Manchuria, Formosa [Taiwan] and the Pescadores [Penghu], shall be restored to China." The Potsdam Proclamation signed by China, the United States and Great Britain on 26 July 1945 (subsequently adhered to by the Soviet Union) reiterated: "The terms of the Cairo Declaration shall be carried out." On 15 August of the same year, Japan declared surrender. The instrument of Japan's surrender stipulated that "Japan hereby accepts the provisions in the declaration issued by the heads of the Governments of the United States, China and Great Britain on July 26, 1945 at Potsdam, and subsequently adhered to by the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics." On 25 October the ceremony for accepting Japan's surrender in Taiwan Province of the China war theater of the Allied powers was held in Taibei. On the occasion the chief officer for accepting the surrender proclaimed on behalf of the Chinese government that from that day forward Taiwan and the Penghu Archipelago had again been incorporated formally into the territory of China and that the territory, people, and administration had now been placed under the sovereignty of China. From that point in time forward, Taiwan and Penghu had been put back under the jurisdiction of Chinese sovereignty.

Since the founding of the People's Republic of China, 157 countries have established diplomatic relations with China. All these countries recognize that there is only one China and that the Government of the People's Republic of China is the sole legal government of China and Taiwan is part of China.
October 22nd, 2004  
Redneck
 
 
If you feel the need to copy and paste, cite your source.
October 23rd, 2004  
godofthunder9010
 
 
The two key points are these:

1.) Taiwan was not a part of anybody else's thing for more of their history than anything else.

2.) China and its people have been taught to believe that Taiwan has no right whatsoever to decide for the fate of their land themselves.

3.) The Qing Dynasty is the measuring stick that the PRC uses to define where their borders should lie, whether the Qing Dynasty had any proper right to it or not, and despite the fact that they weren't technically even a truly Chinese dynasty. Nobody has bothered to dispute or confirm this claim.

Ezechiel, you make some points about colonialism. I don't see the difference between China swallowing up the island of Formosa or Great Britain's swallowing up Scotland and Ireland. You portray Europe's colonial period as only being exploitive. In truth, it was, but it was also beneficial to those nations. Culture and science previously unknown to those lands became available. Some were affected by that cultural influx more than others. There was an air of European racial superiority, but how is that different than China and its "the Middle Kingdom" nonsense? How was it any less exploitive than the Qing Dynasty?

The point about the Ming was valid, albeit weak. The Ming didn't control Formosa for the VAST majority of their existence, and it was just a last place to run to in times of trouble.

The underlying thing is that the Chinese people seems to have decided that they own Taiwan. This "fact" has been drummed into them very thoroughly. In fact, I doubt I'd trust anybody from mainland China to NOT have that opinion. They have been so thoroughly versed on the absoluteness of China's claim to Formosa/Taiwan that they are completely incapable of have any other opinion. Chinese seem to know "Taiwan belongs to China" better than anything on this earth. Most refer to that sort of thing as "indoctrination", the stronger term being "brainwashing". That terminology may or may not be fair, but consider one very important fact -- The People's Republic of China is ready and willing to kill every living thing on that island rather than allow it to become its own nation. Pardon my opinion, but that's completely ed up!
October 23rd, 2004  
antimili
 
i hope you should read my post "Taiwan--an Inalienable Part of China" carefully before you post any comment. Taiwan had always been a part of China until in the ww2 against japanese.

i think i forget to remind you something that "should hawaii and alaska declare independance from the usa. and should texa anounce its independance from usa. should american indian claim their territory back which was rightfully theirs.