Will China unite with Taiwan peacefully? - Page 2




View Poll Results :I think China will unite with Taiwan peacefully
YES, a decade later 11 21.15%
YES, more than two or three decades later 16 30.77%
YES, but beyond my lifetime 2 3.85%
NO. China is interested to use force 23 44.23%
Voters: 52. You may not vote on this poll

 
--
Boots
 
October 21st, 2004  
SAINT
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010
Would any such threat of force exist if Taiwan and China had exactly equal military, population etc? No it almost definietly would not.
Yes, I like that sentence. It's really a case of China being bigger and therefore assumes its right over Taiwan.

Such claim by China won't exist if Taiwan is equal in size and might.

It's some sort of bullying?
October 21st, 2004  
A Can of Man
 
 
Of course it's bullying.
This is why China's not as popular in the region as it tries to believe it is.
October 21st, 2004  
Ezechiel
 
My saying that "thousands of years" is wrong, I apologize.

But I keep my opinion that Taiwan as aprt of China

Dutch colony (1624-1662) :

http://www.geocities.com/apapadimos/..._History_2.htm

*Japanese colony over Taiwan started in 1895. Whic means after Dutch colony, from 1662-1895 Taiwan were governed by China. After WW II TAIWAN RETURN TO CHINA in 1945 :

http://www.worldstatesmen.org/Taiwan.html

China Ch'ng governemnt OFFICIALLY AND FORMALLY CUT OFF TAIWAN TO JAPANESE IMPERIALIST :

http://acc6.its.brooklyn.cuny.edu/~p...s/lt19cmap.gif

My reason :

1. Historical -- in year 1624 Dutch did colonise Taiwan. But later Ming Dynasty got taiwan back to hand and establish the governing system in Taiwan in year 1662. They include Taiwan as a part of Fujien Dynasty.

Whe Ch'ng Dynasty came, and the fall of Ming dynasty. The Ming dynasty rebellian revolted to resist the Ch'ng Dynasty, but they fail their missian in mainland. So the retreat to Taiwan (They rebellian leader name Zheng Chen Gong). But later, for some reason, Dynasty Ch'ng took over Taiwan and made Taiwan into Fujien province.

Until year 1895. Japanese imperialist won China in the War of Jia-wu, as the result,just like how China cut off Hong Kong to Briitish (rememebr this!), China cut off Taiwan to Japan.

1945,After WW II. TAIWAN OFFICIALLY AND FORMALLY RETURN TO CHINA. so from year 1945-1949, Guomingdang govern the Mainland + Taiwan. After civil war, Guomingdang lost they authority in mainland, they escape to Taiwan.

2. The form of RETURN TAIWAN BACK TO CHINA AFTER WW II WERE SAME AS HONGKONG BACK TO CHINA -- I know many ppl here wanna say that, Taiwan is an independent politic body and should have independence. But if u read the History thoroughly and Creafully. BRITISH SIGNED AGREEMENT WITH CH'NG DYNASTY GOVERNMENT TO LOAN HONG KONG, AND BRITISH RETURN IT TO COMMUNIST CHINA IN 1997. So in this occasion, u can never debate that now politic body change and taiwan can have independence. Becoz if u say so, IT MEANS BRITISH DON'T HAVE TO RETURN HONG KONG BACK TO CHINA??

When u see Taiwan officially given back to China in WW II. It's iron prove that taiwan belongs to China.

3. Genes, culture og the taiwanese -- As what u read the website I gave to u. Many Chinese immigrant to taiwan from Fujien Province 300 years ago. This means that the most of the Tawanese nowadays r FROM CHINA.. I am a Chinese living in Malaysia,whose grandad immigrant from Fujien Province. So I know how the local Fujien ppl speak the local language (we call it Fujien-lingua,or Mingnan-lingua). This language r the SAME as what the local Taiwanese speak nowadays (where they call the language as Taiwan-lingua but actually,all r same!~). This prove that those Taiwanese ancestors came from Fujien province of China!

There r 3 groups of ppl in Taiwan -- Outer-province men (Immigrant including old guomingdang soldiers who moved there from China after civil war 1949), Inter-province men (those whose ancestors came from Fujien province 300 years ago), and the local aborogins. Let us make the clear line about this 3 group of ppl. Today,those who wanted to claim independence, r those who called as Inter-province men (NOTICE HERE,NOT ABOROGINS). Outer-province men somehow being a little black eyed by Inter-province men. THE ABOROGINS, THE GROUP WHO HAVE THE MOST RIGHT TO CLAIM INDEPENDENCE,DID NOT CAME OUT TO DO SO. THEY DID NOT DENY TO UNITED WITH CHINA! And today the Cheng Shui Bien government always overlooked the aborogins in Taiwan. that's why they were criticise very much by the Taiwan aborogins world.

What Taiwanese speak generally and officially today? MANDARIN. What the Taiwanese study in their history textbook? CHINA ANCIENT HISTORY (BUT IN ORDER TO CLAIM INDEPENDENCE THE CHENG SHUI BIEN GOVERNMENT RECENTLY WANTED TO CENSOR THIS SYLYBUS). So? Racially they r Chinese.

4. Politically -- Ok,no further talk about Dynasty age. What u know for that 300 years were, China dynasties governed them.

Let's talk about Guomingdang. As u know, after WW II TAIWAN OFFICIALLY RETURNED TO CHINA AND THIS ADMITTED BY THE WORLD. so for those years, Guomingdang govern Taiwan. Whe Guomingdang lost the civil war in 1949, Guomingdang with a big group of soldiers and immigrants moved to Taiwan. Then they built the Decromatic political body in Taiwan until now.

So, in over view for this, we know that CHINESE BROUGHT DECROMATIC POLITIC BODY TO TAIWAN TROUGH GUOMINGDANG. That's why Taiwan were so called as REPUBLIC OF CHINA! see! it's CHINA! u wanna debate me about the politic systembody brings a different country? plz read back about the HONGKONG AND TAIWAN COMPARISON PART.

Today u ask a Taiwanese, who is the founding father of the Country, or father of Independence. they will tell u it's Sun Yat Seng. Who is Sun Yat Seng? He is the man who end the dynasty age of China. And brought out decromatic system. In year 1910-1949, The people of China call Sun yat Seng as the founding father,same as what Taiwan did today. But when Communist came, Sun Yat Seng ofcuz not anymore founding father. But Communist called him as A GREAT REVOLUTIONIST OF CHINA.

When's taiwan and China independence day? 10th of October,the same date!!! This means that Taiwan and China were in concept the same!
--
Boots
October 21st, 2004  
godofthunder9010
 
 
1.) They speak Mandarin Chinese -- So what? Speaking English doesn't give England the right to control you -- Canada, the United States, Australia, etc. Same goes for French, German, Italian, Spanish, etc. The language you speak does not obligate you to subject yourself to anyone.

2.) They have mostly Chinese Blood - Debatable, but irrelevant. If this is a defining factor, exactly what is "Chinese"? Its a mixture of a lot of very old ethnic groups. The concept of blood Chinese didn't stop China from invading Tibet, a nation that had a very separate history, ethnicity and culture from China. It doesn't stop them from ruling the a larger amount of ethnic Mongolian people than any other country in the world. PRC is inconsistent on this one. If you claim that "ethnic Chinese" are required to be a part of China, then does it not follow that "ethnic non-Chinese" should not be? And countless nations in the world are ethnicly one thing, but are still their own nation.

3.) The Qing Dynasty controlled the island for a very long time - Well, it should be noted that the Manchus were not a Chinese people. They were foreign occupiers that remained in power for so long that (to drastically oversimplify) the more traditionally Chinese and the Manchu peoples merged. But okay, skipping past the confusion of Mandarin and Han Chinese, we'll just say that China held them for that time period. So? Virtually every nation on the Mediterranean Sea was held by the Roman Empire for longer that than the Qing controlled Taiwan. They culturally affected those nations in much the same way. Okay, should France appologize and surrender itself to Roman rule once more?

Quote:
The form of RETURN TAIWAN BACK TO CHINA AFTER WW II WERE SAME AS HONGKONG BACK TO CHINA -- I know many ppl here wanna say that, Taiwan is an independent politic body and should have independence. But if u read the History thoroughly and Creafully. BRITISH SIGNED AGREEMENT WITH CH'NG DYNASTY GOVERNMENT TO LOAN HONG KONG, AND BRITISH RETURN IT TO COMMUNIST CHINA IN 1997. So in this occasion, u can never debate that now politic body change and taiwan can have independence. Becoz if u say so, IT MEANS BRITISH DON'T HAVE TO RETURN HONG KONG BACK TO CHINA??
I don't think that's a fair comparison. Taiwan gets handed over to the Republic of China who essentially controls it to this day. There was never an agreement to return Taiwan to the control of anybody else. The Republic of China -- Taiwan -- has been doing its own thing for a long time, you are right. As stated, they never claimed to not be part of China mostly because of Chaing Kaishek's ego. They maintain the name because 1.) They can't decide whether to be anything else. 2.) They're are afraid of what PRC will do.

Quote:
When u see Taiwan officially given back to China in WW II. It's iron prove that taiwan belongs to China.
By that definition, Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia are unimpeachably owned by France. The governments of said nations need to drop their ridiculous charade and reinvite the French to rule over them. After all, Indochina was given back to France at the end of World War II.

For ever single one of your points, I can give you an example of another nation in the world that fits the same profile and/or reasoning, and yet is now fully recognized as an independent country. Most of the reasons stated have built in contradictions as well. We could take it point by point certainly, but its very time consuming.

The underlying fact is that because China has adopted the role of the neighborhood bully and threatens everyone when they don't get their way, the people of Taiwan will not be allowed to decide for themselves what they are. The neighborhood bully has decided for them and will massacre them if they fail to comply with the PRC's definition of them. Taiwan's official name will remain "Republic of China" because the bully will not tolerate them being anything else. "If you leave me, I'll kill you." Its all about fear and power.

Bear in mind that we've gone through this many, many, many times. Run a seach on Taiwan and you'll find all the locked threads about (unless they were deleted that is). It's just me being me. I take exception to China and its people saying that Taiwan and its people have no rights.
October 21st, 2004  
FlyingFrog
 
OK, maybe the word "re-conquering Taiwan" is more suitable.

If man thinks the "re-" is not correct, then let's simply make it" "Conquering Taiwan".

World is cruel, only Fists talk.
October 21st, 2004  
godofthunder9010
 
 
And that the honest truth of it Frog, you're right. Rhetoric and justifications are always far from perfect.
October 21st, 2004  
FlyingFrog
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010
And that the honest truth of it Frog, you're right. Rhetoric and justifications are always far from perfect.
That's true, just like USA simply dropped 2 Nukes in Japan then they knee down, no need to talk BS with them at all. Simple and Efficient.
October 21st, 2004  
Darkmb101
 
China could only unite with Taiwan peacefully if China recognizes Taiwan as its own country, which it doesnt.
October 21st, 2004  
godofthunder9010
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkmb101
China could only unite with Taiwan peacefully if China recognizes Taiwan as its own country, which it doesnt.
I don't think that statement makes sense. Can you help me understand what you're getting at?
October 22nd, 2004  
SAINT
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingFrog
World is cruel, only Fists talk.
It's true. But China has to take note of its southern neighbour India..

And it isn't quite friendly with China, no?

That's more important than Taiwan, maybe?