Will China unite with Taiwan peacefully? - Page 16




View Poll Results :I think China will unite with Taiwan peacefully
YES, a decade later 11 21.15%
YES, more than two or three decades later 16 30.77%
YES, but beyond my lifetime 2 3.85%
NO. China is interested to use force 23 44.23%
Voters: 52. You may not vote on this poll

 
--
Boots
 
November 26th, 2004  
godofthunder9010
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYC88mm
civil war(1948)
korean war(1950)
war with india (1962)
None of these count as being within the "Last 40 Years", correct? All are past the mark of 40 years old

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war with vietnam (1979)
Yep that would count. Still, that's 25 years old, and not exactly a brilliant success. In fact, it showed China doing very poorly against an opponent much, much weaker than themselves.
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yearly military excerices
(can't count that as real battlefield experience of course)
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taking islands near the taiwan straits
There's been loads of activity around those islands, so can you tell me which actions we're talking about?

I have to agree that China has greatly improved the overall quality of its military within the last 60 years. By sheer numbers, they are a danger to ANY opponent so long as they can get those numbers to the battlefield.

You'd be hard-pressed to find a military in the world as fine-tuned as the Israeli Defense Forces -- man for man, probably the finest army on the planet. The USA comes very close to matching them, if not outright surpassing them. (Numbers taken into account, the USA is obviously the stronger of those two.) Both of those militaries have a lot of very recent experience on the battlefield.

China has not yet matched either in quality, though they're much more focussed on greater quality forces today. Because of the Quantity that China has at its disposal, they can most likely at least equal anyone on the planet in a land war. On paper, this seems obvious, but the real test would be on a real battlefield.
November 26th, 2004  
ironface
 
say,If I live in US for 45 years,and I have lots of children here,
and form a village,and can I acclaim to be independent of my village??

Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010
1.) They speak Mandarin Chinese -- So what? Speaking English doesn't give England the right to control you -- Canada, the United States, Australia, etc. Same goes for French, German, Italian, Spanish, etc. The language you speak does not obligate you to subject yourself to anyone.

2.) They have mostly Chinese Blood - Debatable, but irrelevant. If this is a defining factor, exactly what is "Chinese"? Its a mixture of a lot of very old ethnic groups. The concept of blood Chinese didn't stop China from invading Tibet, a nation that had a very separate history, ethnicity and culture from China. It doesn't stop them from ruling the a larger amount of ethnic Mongolian people than any other country in the world. PRC is inconsistent on this one. If you claim that "ethnic Chinese" are required to be a part of China, then does it not follow that "ethnic non-Chinese" should not be? And countless nations in the world are ethnicly one thing, but are still their own nation.

3.) The Qing Dynasty controlled the island for a very long time - Well, it should be noted that the Manchus were not a Chinese people. They were foreign occupiers that remained in power for so long that (to drastically oversimplify) the more traditionally Chinese and the Manchu peoples merged. But okay, skipping past the confusion of Mandarin and Han Chinese, we'll just say that China held them for that time period. So? Virtually every nation on the Mediterranean Sea was held by the Roman Empire for longer that than the Qing controlled Taiw
an. They culturally affected those nations in much the same way. Okay, should France appologize and surrender itself to Roman rule once more?

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The form of RETURN TAIWAN BACK TO CHINA AFTER WW II WERE SAME AS HONGKONG BACK TO CHINA -- I know many ppl here wanna say that, Taiwan is an independent politic body and should have independence. But if u read the History thoroughly and Creafully. BRITISH SIGNED AGREEMENT WITH CH'NG DYNASTY GOVERNMENT TO LOAN HONG KONG, AND BRITISH RETURN IT TO COMMUNIST CHINA IN 1997. So in this occasion, u can never debate that now politic body change and taiwan can have independence. Becoz if u say so, IT MEANS BRITISH DON'T HAVE TO RETURN HONG KONG BACK TO CHINA??
I don't think that's a fair comparison. Taiwan gets handed over to the Republic of China who essentially controls it to this day. There was never an agreement to return Taiwan to the control of anybody else. The Republic of China -- Taiwan -- has been doing its own thing for a long time, you are right. As stated, they never claimed to not be part of China mostly because of Chaing Kaishek's ego. They maintain the name because 1.) They can't decide whether to be anything else. 2.) They're are afraid of what PRC will do.

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When u see Taiwan officially given back to China in WW II. It's iron prove that taiwan belongs to China.
By that definition, Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia are unimpeachably owned by France. The governments of said nations need to drop their ridiculous charade and reinvite the French to rule over them. After all, Indochina was given back to France at the end of World War II.

For ever single one of your points, I can give you an example of another nation in the world that fits the same profile and/or reasoning, and yet is now fully recognized as an independent country. Most of the reasons stated have built in contradictions as well. We could take it point by point certainly, but its very time consuming.

The underlying fact is that because China has adopted the role of the neighborhood bully and threatens everyone when they don't get their way, the people of Taiwan will not be allowed to decide for themselves what they are. The neighborhood bully has decided for them and will massacre them if they fail to comply with the PRC's definition of them. Taiwan's official name will remain "Republic of China" because the bully will not tolerate them being anything else. "If you leave me, I'll kill you." Its all about fear and power.

Bear in mind that we've gone through this many, many, many times. Run a seach on Taiwan and you'll find all the locked threads about (unless they were deleted that is). It's just me being me. I take exception to China and its people saying that Taiwan and its people have no rights.
November 27th, 2004  
godofthunder9010
 
 
Quote:
say,If I live in US for 45 years,and I have lots of children here,
and form a village,and can I acclaim to be independent of my village??
Same rhetoric as usual and nobody ever convinces anybody.

The difference between you declaring independence for your village and Taiwan is pretty simple. The United States has control of it now. Real control. The PRC has never had any actual control over Taiwan.
--
Boots
November 27th, 2004  
Damien435
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYC88mm
the us is deeply in debt, unable to wage another war on asian territory
the us wont go into war if china invades, simple as it is because the us would lose its biggest manufacturing partner, and china would lose one of its biggest markets
First off, about our debt, we are not in debt to other countries, we are in debt to ourselves, that is much easier to solve than a debt to another country.

Second, cutting off trade with China would not be a bad thing, this out sourcing is killing our economy.

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if us is smart enough, they wont wage on china, its going to be a h**l of a lot worse than iraq: chinese are experienced with war, very exierpenced, alomst every family has military history
Yes, and in 1990 Iraq had the fourth largest army who were battle hardened after 10 years of war with Iraq, yet we destroyed them with something like 148 casualties in the first Iraqi war.

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AKA us doenst want to wage war aginist china or else 1.4 billon chiense, esecially the northerns, will be super maddened and will nationlistc feelings will be ultra high.
Yeah, and you know, we have no nationalist feelings what so ever. Courage can only do so much, eventually you will need the equipment to fight a war, China may have a population of 1.4 Billion, but how many of those can they put on the field of battle at a time for a sustained period of time?

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besides, the mostly likely threat for us now is iran
Actually, the most likely threat for the US is terrorists, Iran will not be able to get a nuke, even the UN is starting to act against Iran and proposing military action, something the US did over a year ago.
November 27th, 2004  
MadeInChina
 
stil its debt, and bush..... we cant trust him no matter how well he hides his shames

4th largest army??? in 1990 chinese army came first, then soviet forces, indian forces, north kroean forces, us forces, pakastani forces...... it made it to 10th in 1990 for the iraqi army

anyways, the iraqi army did not have wutsoever great strategy in which came to its defeat, the us navy+airforce is what really did the job in iraq, they destoryed the industry and alot of their morale during those months, the us army just sweeped up the dust. a shortcoming is the t-72 tank, in which cannot fire while moving, which nowadays is a very bad setback aginsit the us armored calvary.

what bonds the americans together is the manifest destiny and the democratic heaven that gives everybody the chance to speak out and the freedom to do whatever one wishes... what bonds the chiense together is war and revenge( the chinese are at times quite opposed at each other, in contrast to the jpanese).

Iraq was the plains, desert, flat ground, wher the us troops roam free. IN china, mountains and hills with the yellow river used as a weapon will stop the american invasion quite easily, just look at japan

terrorists, that leads teh the warefare of gurella and BEL(behind enemy lines)

lets get back on topic
November 27th, 2004  
godofthunder9010
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYC88mm
stil its debt, and bush..... we cant trust him no matter how well he hides his shames

4th largest army??? in 1990 chinese army came first, then soviet forces, indian forces, north kroean forces, us forces, pakastani forces...... it made it to 10th in 1990 for the iraqi army
I think you have the order wrong there. Mind providing a link? The biggest 3 have been China, the USA and the Soviet Union for ages. The order of those three has varied.

Quote:
what bonds the americans together is the manifest destiny and the democratic heaven that gives everybody the chance to speak out and the freedom to do whatever one wishes...
This statement is strong evidence that you don't really know what does bond Americans together. For one thing, Manifest Destiny is dead -- the USA has no aspirations for taking over the rest of North America. If we did, we'd have done it by now.

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what bonds the chinese together is war and revenge( the chinese are at times quite opposed at each other, in contrast to the jpanese).
So basically, you're starting out on the same footing as Nazi Germany, right? Everything is about revenge, righting injustices and the glory of China, right? How is that a good thing?


Quote:
lets get back on topic
Couldn't agree more.
November 27th, 2004  
Chocobo_Blitzer
 
China will not reunite with Taiwan peacefully. There is only the continuation of unity and the eventual acceptance of who they are. That, or the radical rebellion from the motherland. Either way, it all ends the same.

The only problem lies within the United States, but through time, even that is no problem at all. China is quickly gaining upon the US is military power, this will even the playing field to an extent, and (theoretically) inflict high to medium casualties onto the US.

The American people have no stomach for spending their human and economic resources into a feeble island rebellion that holds small strategic value- let alone at high/medium cost. USA government will not commit.

China is victorious.
November 28th, 2004  
godofthunder9010
 
 
Probably true, but it would be nice to see a happy ending for Taiwan. Neither Taiwan nor China benefits from invasion and hostile takeover. I can't think of anybody that comes out ahead in the situation.
November 29th, 2004  
Chocobo_Blitzer
 
The PLA would get dibs for doing such an excellent job.
November 29th, 2004  
Damien435
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010
Probably true, but it would be nice to see a happy ending for Taiwan. Neither Taiwan nor China benefits from invasion and hostile takeover. I can't think of anybody that comes out ahead in the situation.
I can.