I give up. The discussion is pointless because you will always have an excuse to rule out what I'm saying, and you're not doing it fairly. There is no scenario that you're not going to say, "Oh, that comparison isn't valid because..."

We'll just accept that China is a rule unto itself and has reality warping powers surrounding it -- and I'm calling it good at that. That or you need to provide a list of places in the world that are not automatically invalid. As far as I can tell, the only one you'll likely accept is China, which accomplishes nothing.

Since nothing else can be used for comparison, then China works on a completely different set of rules than the rest of the world.

why u always ASSUME that taiwanese is totally different from Chinese...
prehaps u never know any Taiwanese or chinese

we r same in most of ways,
taiwanese is not influenced by CHinese culture, they are dominated by chinese culture, they are chinese, wut htey do everyday, the way they think, the way they talk are all chinese style, (if u understand wut chinese style is)

it is really a sad thing to argue about taiwan issue with someone who doesn't know a lot about chiense hisotry and culture,
Chinese values unity in both family and country for thousand years,
cuz we know we prospers when we united and we lose when we are not united, that is why we want to make taiwan back to mainland

U also assumes that all taiwnan pll don't want to get back with mainland, they dont want to get under control of commuinit , but most of them are still proud of their chinese idenity and culture, (i doubt any of taiwanese will say celebraiting Chinese new year is native tradition)

plz understand our culture before u make up ur opinion,
China has its dinstive culture for 5000 years

I've used history and told I don't know history or that I was somehow understanding it wrong.
I've provided real world examples and have been told that none of them count.
I think I've approached the whole thing quite rationally, yet I'm told that "I just don't understand."
My points seem to be taken with the attitude that I'm some unenlightened nitwit.

Honestly, what's the point in continuing the discussion??

godofthunder9010,

You can email G.Bush, he admits Taiwan is PART of CHINA. All US governments admit Taiwan is PART of CHINA. Btw USA does not enjoy a formal Diplomatic Relationship with Taiwan, why if it is a seperate Country.

Oh, this is hilarish, G.Bush calls Taiwan "President" Chen SB as S.O.B., because Chen SB of Taiwan talks too much BS about independence.
Report from Tiawan Newspapers.
Quoted by Chinese site:
http://news.sohu.com/20041112/n222949766.shtml

Automatic translation:
Recently the Taiwan media reported said, has taken office since Chen Shuibian, repeatedly has "the astonishing language" in the public situation, has already given US "too many pleasantly surprised", causes US already seriously to lose the confidence regarding Taiwan, even lets President Bush extremely be discontented, twice in secret scolds Chen Shuibian was "S.O.B." (***** raises). This speech regardless of is or is all uncivilized in the occidental language in Chinese, uses this vulgar language as the political figure regarding the serious political subject not to be supposed. The question is Chen Shuibian is scolded this event, explained his for more than 4 years come, since specially have drawn support from not the improper method to be continue as "anxiously to be alone" the behavior, while encounter which both banks Chinese intensely opposed, also cause US'S high worry

godofthunder9010

dude, ur attidude is good, but sadly this issue is too hard for some westeners to understand,
not ur fault,

dont blame urself if taiwan government declared independance and got ****ed up

Here's an interesting news item:

BEIJING (Reuters) - One of China's top Taiwan policymakers said Monday armed conflict will be unavoidable if the island keeps provoking and pushing for independence, but held out hope for the rivals reopening long-stalled dialogue.

Tension has been simmering since the March re-election of Taiwan President Chen Shui-bian, who said last week the next two years are key to resuming dialogue with China and suggested the two sides set up a "buffer zone" to avoid accidental military conflict.

"I think it is unavoidable tension will rise in the Taiwan Straits and there may even be armed conflict ... if the island keeps bumping Beijing's 'one China' bottom line and pushes for independence," Wang Zaixi, vice minister of the Taiwan Affairs Office, told Reuters in a rare interview. "The Chen Shui-bian authorities are exploiting our restraint on the Taiwan issue," he said.

"They are attempting to exploit ... the fact that mainland compatriots are focusing energy on developing the economy and exploit our preparations for the 2008 Olympics," said Wang, a People's Liberation Army major general before becoming vice minister in 2000.

But Wang held out hope for the two sides to resume dialogue under the "one China" principle which dictates that the mainland and the island are part of a single country.

Beijing has claimed sovereignty over Taiwan since their split at the end of the Chinese civil war in 1949 and has threatened to attack the democratic island if it formally declares independence.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...ovocation_dc_1

I think the last paragraph explains things a bit. China has never recognized the independence of Taiwan even though the west did. I don't think any discussion here is going to change the minds of either the Chinese or the Taiwanese.

think the last paragraph explains things a bit. China has never recognized the independence of Taiwan even though the west did. I don't think any discussion here is going to change the minds of either the Chinese or the Taiwanese.

Yawn....Hmmm...a Cliche. The article is too breif to be interesting and besides, this stuff is not new at all. It's just a little essay on the situation.

China has never recognized the independence of Taiwan even though the west did.

The west never did and never will recognize Taiwan as an independent nation. The European Union knows that Chen Shui Bian is just an instigator. Why? Well they are seeking economic oppurtunities in Mainland China instead of Taiwan. As a result, they established full cooperation with Beijing.

DTop
just got owned

Secrecy, once again the facts and I beg to differ with you. Yes the article is brief, so what? It wasn't intended to be a dissertation on the relationship between Taiwan and communist China was it? Why state the obvious? I didn't write it. If you don't like it, contact the author.
You seem to find it difficult to allow for a difference of opinion but it does exist.
You said "The west never did and never will recognize Taiwan as an independent nation." The PROC never recognized the ROC, that is true but this attitude was not prevalent in the west after WWII.
Well, here's part of another article that disputes your statement. Believe what you will. Thank you for keeping your comments civil.

That China hardly had any influence in the coastal waters around Taiwan is apparent from the two following examples: when in the 1870's Taiwanese pirates captured American, Japanese and French ships passing the island, these governments protested to Peking, but the Manchu emperor said: "Taiwan is beyond our territory."

In fact, the French go so upset by the recurring attacks on their ships and the Chinese inaction, that they sent a fleet to the island, and for nine months in 1884-85, the northern part of Taiwan was French territory.

It wasn't until 1887, that the Manchu Imperial authorities decided to declare Taiwan to be a "province" of their Empire: they wanted to outmaneuver the Japanese, who were expanding their influence to the South.

The ploy didn't work: in 1895 the Japanese defeated the Manchu's in the Sino-Japanese War, and in the Treaty of Shimonoseki, China ceded Taiwan to Japan in perpetuity (not 99 years, like Hong Kong's New Territories, but in perpetuity, i.e. forever).

An important conclusion is thus that Taiwan was an occupied part of Imperial China for only eight years. Not "always", as the KMT and the Chinese Communists are claiming.

The Taiwan Republic
The Taiwanese didn't like the idea of incorporation into Japan, and on 25 May 1895 -- with the assistance of disenchanted Manchu officials -- the Taiwan Republic, the first independent republic in Asia was established.

The San Francisco Peace Treaty
In 1951-52 the Allied Powers and Japan formally concluded World War II by concluding the San Francisco Peace Treaty. That Treaty is important for Taiwan, because it decided that Japan gave up sovereignty over Taiwan, but it was not determined who was the beneficiary: it was concluded that "...the future status of Taiwan will be decided in accord with the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations."

The Charter of the UN contains article 1.2 which states that it is a purpose of the UN "To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples..." The formal result of the San Francisco Peace Treaty is thus that the people of Taiwan should determine the future status of the island based on the principle of self-determination. This Treaty is thus the first, and the last, international treaty of the 20th Century which deals with the status of Taiwan.

http://www.taiwandc.org/hst-1624.htm
My point is that there is more than the Chinese viewpoint on this. No matter what your personal beliefs, to deny that the Republic of China ever existed is just self delusional.
More info:
http://www.gio.gov.tw/taiwan-website...ook/chpt03.htm

[quote="SAINT"]

Originally Posted by godofthunder9010

Such claim by China won't exist if Taiwan is equal in size and might.

It's some sort of bullying?

I am 100% sure that more than half of this world believes that that is the case between the USA and Iraq (the fact that the US invaded Iraq), regardless of what half of you Americans think. And no, I'm not making a judgment on the nature of US-Iraqi war here.

Now when I again speak against your argument, you may think that I just hate the US. But of course you are wrong. I love the US of America and most Americans I've met! But my love for something doesn't blind me from seeing its dark side. This is the difference between people like me and some members on this forum. They hate or despise or fear China for no good reasons other than what they have been told of so many bad things about the Communist system, the communists, the communist Chinese, etc. despite the fact that we human being are essentially the same and given certain conditions, we all are capable of tremendous love acts and hideous crimes! (That was a LONG sentence! Me bad!).

I say, people, go out and have a look around the world with your own eyes. It will benefit your souls. Trust me! ... Hehe, don't I sound like a used car salesman now?