'Wikileaks reveals video showing US air crew shooting down Iraqi civilians'

Years ago the Israelis were having an active intervention somewhere.

Some newsfolks decided to "shoot" an Israeli tank at some distance.

They were setting up a tripod mounted camera when the tank opened fire.

The surviving newsfolks were distraught.

War zones are no place o go prancing about with ones head up his ass.

Those Reuters clowns had signed their own death warrents by associating with live potential targets.
 
Maybe so Mike, but I'm trying to figure out how the gunner can ID an RPG-7 and not a camera. And are they so willing to "eliminate" the insurgetns that they are willing to kill unarmed/innocent bystanders? But.....that is exactly why our guys are fighting the Taliban & AQ over, because they kill unarmed/innocent people as well.

"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you." (Friedrich Nietzsche).
 
Your profile says you sometimes work as a photo journalist. Tell me would you use as a source, organizations that were directly involved, or do you prefer to use second hand information?

-snip-
Also as a journalists you know that you supplied an official time line but did not supply your source.
-snip-
1. As a journalist it would seem you have plagiarized others materials, as you supplied no byline or who your official source is.
Actually, I worked 27 years as a photo journalist :).

As far as the sources are concerned, I supplied them, will highlight them for you in the quotation:

July 12th, 2007 New York Times reports that two Iraqi journalists were killed in a militia clash with U.S. forces.

July 13th, 2007: Press statement from public affairs office in camp Victory reports on the event. "There is no question that Coalition Forces were clearly engaged in combat operations against a hostile force," said Lt. Col Scott Bleichwehl, spokesperson and public affairs officer for MND-B.

July 13th, 2007 Reuters blog posts an entry on the killings of Namir Noor-Eldeen and Saeed Chmagh. Namir was the 109th journalist to be killed in Iraq since the invasion in 2003, and Saeed the 40th member of support staff.

July 16th, 2007 Reuters seeks U.S. probe into the killings of their staff. "Our preliminary investigation raises real questions about whether there was fighting at the time the two men were killed," said David Schlesinger, editor-in-chief of Reuters. Specifically, Reuters wanted an explanation of why the two cameras were confiscated, access to any cameras onboard the Apache helicopters that were involved in the incident, access to any voice communications between the helicopter crews and U.S. ground forces and access to reports from the unit involved in the incident, in particular a log of any weapons taken from the scene.

July 16th, 2007: Counterpunch reports that "The US military says US and Iraqi forces engaged "a hostile force" and, after coming under fire, called for air support that killed nine insurgents and two civilians. The police and witnesses tell a different story. A preliminary police report from al-Rashad police station said Mr Noor-Eldeen and Mr Chmagh were killed along with nine others by a "random American bombardment." One witness, Karim Shindakh, said: "The aircraft began striking randomly and people were wounded. A Kia [mini-van] arrived to take them away. They hit the Kia and killed ... the two journalists."

March 2008 Reuters opens website "Bearing Witness" dedicated to the memory of the Reuters journalists that have been killed in Iraq during the war: Taras Protsyuk (2003); Mazen Dana (2003); Dhia Najim (2003); Waleed Khaled (2005); Saeed Chmagh (2007); Namir Noor-Eldeen (2007); and an anonymous Reuters journalist who was killed in 2007.

July 25th, 2008 Reuters posts memorial article. In it they mention that "Reuters News is seeking video footage from the U.S. military and other materials relating to the killing of Noor-Eldeen and Chmagh. The footage was taken by cameras on board the U.S. helicopters involved in the incident, in which nine other people were killed. The U.S. military said last week it is still processing the request"

Rattler
 
Around 500ft for the range? seems quite incredulous that someone would stand around chatting carrying RPGs within 500ft of an Apache helicopter hovering nearby. The video looks grainy and there were a few seconds time lag between firing and impact, which suggests to me the range could be a mile or more.

Any idea on the other two questions? surely somone can provide a link to the ROE for this area, I have had a quick search.


And you were not in New Baghdad or Sadar City in 2007 every malcontent in the area was walking down the street armed and most of them were Madhi Militia.
 
The video looks grainy and there were a few seconds time lag between firing and impact, which suggests to me the range could be a mile or more.

You could calculate the aproxximate range fairly exactly with a stop watch:

The M230 muzzle velocity is 792m/s, though for dissipating energy travel time to cover 1000 mtrs is close to 2 secs, for 3000 mtrs it is 12.2 secs.

Rattler
 
You could calculate the aproxximate range fairly exactly with a stop watch:
The M230 muzzle velocity is 792m/s, though for dissipating energy travel time to cover 1000 mtrs is close to 2 secs, for 3000 mtrs it is 12.2 secs.
Rattler

The lag is around 2 secs, so based on this the range should be around 1 km.
 
You guys are funny... You have 6 dead innocent people and all you care about is the idiots who opened fire at them?

And you hide behind rules of engagement and crap like that to justify murder. This wasnt a "mistake". A mistake is when you shoot somesone by mistake when you are in an emergency situation, when you are underfire or when teammates are underfire...

where was the emergency here? He was at 500ft. Perfectly safe... Even if it was an RPG team, they werent engaging the Apache.

So these guys rather kill innocents than let a few poorly armed enemy survive? That's stupid ROE.

This is shameful... The target wasnt worth the risk... You said it yourself, it's easy to make mistakes... Yet they seemed sure of what they were doing. This is a crime.

If it's not the guys shooting, it's the people who gave such idiots big guns...
 
LeMask, I assure you that the chopper crew are my concern.
Instead of just the six they shot, what about when they come back stateside? Will they be able to tell the difference?

I'm sorry that six people died a needless death, but perhaps we can make something good out of this. Maybe their deaths will show that we need to make changes in the ROE currently in place? I dunno.
 
Hmmm, you are very optimistic...
You think that they will learn after one incident? It will take millions of unnecessary deaths before they start learning.

The lives of the Iraqis have no value... They just dont care about that. They will learn something from this incident... They will learn to lie better and to be better at hiding the truth.

You want better ROE? I can give you that. Dont shoot people if they arent a direct threat to you. This will cost lives of some soldiers. But they are professional soldiers trained, equipped and supported by powerful protocols and systems.
Every incident means more terrorism and more and better enemy propaganda...

How much support this buys to the insurgents/terrorists?

producing better ROEs takes seconds of thought... Maybe a little time to adapt, but hell, they are professional soldiers, they should catch up quick.

We are way beyond military incompetence... This is huge. This is cold blooded slaughter of innocent civilians. The voices you hear dont prove anything, they can be fake, and I dont mean that they were added after...
How many murders was recorded saying "oh, I see it, here are 6 innocent people with a camera, let's kill them all to the last... I hope nobody is recording this..."

If I wanted to shoot someone, I would do the same... "oh no, a terrorist... He is small, disguised as a child, oh, he is carrying a dynamite pack... I'm engaging. boum boum... what? it was a kid carrying a birthday cake with candles? ooops... my bad... Sorry."

Dont let the voices fool you.

ROE are like a speed limit. It's not because you can drive at 100mph that you have to drive at 100mph. You can drive slower... If you drive too slow, you can get killed.

And I think that too slow here is when people are shooting at you or clearly preparing to shoot you. and you are "should I kill them? What a dilemma?"

This is more than military incompetence, we are closer to the conspiracy theories realm here... This is just evil.
 
You guys are funny... You have 6 dead innocent people and all you care about is the idiots who opened fire at them?
6 dead innocent? Where did that come from?
We are trying to show compassion for the helicopter crew. Who knows what remorse they may be feeling?
The two that were killed were a camera man and driver. Sound familiar? Are the innocent? Or could they be paparazzi like those that caused Princess Diana's death?

And you hide behind rules of engagement and crap like that to justify murder. This wasnt a "mistake". A mistake is when you shoot somesone by mistake when you are in an emergency situation, when you are underfire or when teammates are underfire...
When giving definitions of words you cannot use the word to define itself. As in your above definition of"mistake".

where was the emergency here? He was at 500ft. Perfectly safe... Even if it was an RPG team, they werent engaging the Apache.

So these guys rather kill innocents than let a few poorly armed enemy survive? That's stupid ROE.
Perfectly safe? We don't know what weapons were in the hands of those on the ground. The Apache was within machine gun range or the helicopter crew would not have been able to eliminate the targets on the ground.

Let a few poorly armed enemy to survive? Don't think how they are armed matters when dealing with enemy combatants.

Are you suggesting that ROE should call for the enemy to be given weapons equal to our troops. NOW THAT WOULD BE STUPID ROE.


This is shameful... The target wasnt worth the risk... You said it yourself, it's easy to make mistakes... Yet they seemed sure of what they were doing. This is a crime.

If it's not the guys shooting, it's the people who gave such idiots big guns...

Wasn't worth the risk? You said it yourself, they were "Perfectly safe" so there was no risk.

Militarily speaking the machine gun is classified as small arms not "big gun".

A naval 16" gun would be a gun.
 
Chukpike, you have one good point... But still, most of what you said isnt helping at all. Give some arguments.

I'm not here to define mistake. Yes, it's ridiculous to use a word in its own definition.
I just dont call this a mistake.

A "mistake" is when you had to react quickly and that you "mistake" someone for someone else. When you are confused and that you dont have the time to take the right decision.

Example, you storm a room in hostage rescue situation, and that you shoot a hostage by error. Because he was disguised by the terrorists... Or something of this kind.

But here, it didnt happen. They had a lot of time. To see, and look carefully. And yes, they should let the enemy escape if they arent sure he is an enemy.

They dont have the right to kill civilians... They just dont. And I'm very friendly toward the coalition, Because even insurgents have rights. Taking arms against the government/invaders isnt a crime yet. And especially not when the army acts like this.

Being a papparazi isnt a crime. Not yet. And these are journalists sir. They are here to inform people. Call them flies on crap. But in a democracy... We need to inform the people on the crap they have on their boots so they can build informed opinions.

And yes, the Apache is perfectly safe... It's armored, flying high, equiped with counter measures, capable of firing back accurately and with a lot of power...
So yes, the Apache is perfectly safe...

And I never said that we should give them the same weapons. Even if I like the idea when I see that you let criminals fly these things...
Why not give the other criminals guns too. We will have criminals killing criminals, and here honest people are winning as their enemies as killing each others like idiots...

Oh, you can keep your military definition, we are not talking about that... I should send you with a camera in Baghdad, and when you will have these maniacs shooting you with these 20mm machine guns (with a clear area effect) you will tell us if it's not big enough...
And the risk I'm talking about here is the risk to let insurgent get away one day to see them attacking and maybe killing the soldiers on the ground you are supposed to protect as a attack/close support helicopter...

It was worth the risk... Now, we have superb propaganda to hire more terrorists... Guess how many wannabe terrorists will take arms and bombs against us. Let me tell you one thing. Even if it's one, it's too many...

Stupid military doctrine... You are still counting success with this vulgar body count techniques... I call them Nazis. Being a Nazi is more than hating jews... This kind of thinking, this kind of exploitation of human life... It's just plain wrong.
 
You guys are funny... You have 6 dead innocent people and all you care about is the idiots who opened fire at them?

And you hide behind rules of engagement and crap like that to justify murder. This wasnt a "mistake". A mistake is when you shoot somesone by mistake -snip-

JFTR, I am not at all going for the shooters (thogh they disqualify morally from my POV, they are officers right?), I give them the credit of mis-ID and so that would make it a mistake in my book.

What has me upset is that agian nobody of Higher admits to it, and admin whitewashs things, a bad attitude from my POV (as discussed earlier, only here we have the own structure producing the witness). Only in this context does ROE become interesting.

Rattler
 
Okay Rattler, these are not robots.
What? they should engage everything looking suspicious until there is a change of the ROE?

Where is the hunter's instincts? where is the skills? the professionalism? Where is the courage? where is the value of these fine officers?

Let the moral values aside if you want... Not a problem for me.

This is plain incompetence.

But I care about about moral values too. On a strategic point of view. Moral support is important. By killing innocent people, you lose the moral support of the population.

And then you lose the war. This kind of behavior is not acceptable. It's not a mistake. The mistake is to allow such criminals or idiots near live ammo.

This is criminal. I'm outraged.
 
I fully admit that.

So as they can make mistakes, we should change the ROE to be sure that they wont attack people by mistake.

And one more thing... They are human, they can be criminals, nazis, idiots etc etc...

Add that to the ROE too.
 
Dont shoot people if they arent a direct threat to you.
On this basis you couldn't use offensive air power at all in a war, you have to wait for them to come to you and play on their terms, it's no way to win a war. I think the ROE are important because they dictate what is morally acceptable during a war, and who is prosecuted.

Whether this particular war is immoral and if so everything in it is another issue.
 
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Perseus, war against terrorism have to be fought this way... You are shooting at an enemy who is disguised as civilians.

Making room for mistakes like this is losing the war.

They are fighting an insurgency. Killing is always a bad thing... the objective is to control terrain. Killing should be the last option.

It's preferable to push the insurgents to put down weapons rather than to kill them...

But we are not talking about this right now. These fast and agressive war doctrines are good if you want to fight the Russians in a cold war... But they are not effective in peace keeping/insurgency fighting roles...

Look at the results... Just look at the results...
 
We are way beyond military incompetence... This is huge. This is cold blooded slaughter of innocent civilians. The voices you hear dont prove anything, they can be fake, and I dont mean that they were added after...
How many murders was recorded saying "oh, I see it, here are 6 innocent people with a camera, let's kill them all to the last... I hope nobody is recording this..."

If I wanted to shoot someone, I would do the same... "oh no, a terrorist... He is small, disguised as a child, oh, he is carrying a dynamite pack... I'm engaging. boum boum... what? it was a kid carrying a birthday cake with candles? ooops... my bad... Sorry."

Dont let the voices fool you.

This is more than military incompetence, we are closer to the conspiracy theories realm here... This is just evil.
Don't get me wrong, I agree with you entirely. But better to be optimistic than not.
 
So you think you're an expert .......

Terminal stupidity doesn't mean you were murdered.

For those of you that have the logic and are actually interested in the events as they occurred and why they did, here are copies of the sworn statements and 15-6 investigations.
Pretty cut and dry.

Sworn Statements

1st Cav 15-6 Investigation

2nd BCT 15-6 Invesgiation

I highly recommend reading the 2nd BCT 15-6

Here are videos that contain parts Wiki decided to edit out:

Link

Link 2

 
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