Why do I support Iraqi War? - Page 2




 
--
Boots
 
March 4th, 2006  
chinese-canadian
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandy
Chinese Government-run CCTV did the war coverage 24 hours more continuously.
This is the first time in the history of China.
Moreover, they not only reported the United States military results but also pointed out that this war was not a justice(strangely, as US liberal media did)
By the attack of the U.S.-Britain army
They emphasized occurring of the heavy loss of lives to the Iraqi people.
(I watched this TV and lough&wry because I have never seen such liberal media in china)
and more important point
CCTV used the report of the Iraq war to uplift patriotism and race education.
Chinese leaders strongly insisted on the cruelty of the infringement of sovereignty to Iraq.
I think this to be preparations to restrain the "North Korea attack of the U.S. military "and Saving Taiwan of US military.
I got to disagree with your comment sayinig this is the first time in Chinese history CCTV is covering a foreign war 24 hour a day, during the Kosovo air bombing campign, CCTV covered it too

I watched those coverage on the Iraqi war, on CCTV and also local channels back in my home town....(not 24 hour coverage)
Generally speaking the coverage was ok as they had invited some military experts (professionals from National Defence university) to explain how U.S was attacking and what kind of weapons U.S was using (lots of cool footages).

Chinese government's stand on this war is very very ambiguous, they talked about U.S' invasion without UN approval, yet they also talked about Saddam's atrocities (a bunch of bodies found here and there).
I think basically CHina's attitude is "dont wnat to get involved in this, CHina as bigger problems to worry about".
like Taiwan, or Japan
March 4th, 2006  
Chief Bones
 
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by phoenix80
What kind of answer do you expect from a European liberal?
I would like to expect an answer that made some kind of sense even if it was a little weird. I realize that Europeans have a strange sense of being the center of the universe and view every other country as being bourgeois. I guess it's reasonable to assume that all the other leaders are perfect little angels based upon the fact that Hitler, Mussolini and Stalin were completely ignored by almost every European country until they invaded their neighbors - it's also a moot point ... but ... some of these same countries also deny that over six million Jews were exterminated by the Nazis. As far as colonialism is concerned, why wouldn't Europeans accuse everyone else of being guilty of this 'crime' ... after all ... isn't that why certain 'little' brush fires and mini-wars were fought throughout the world in the past ... fighting to overcome European Colonialism in the far corners of the world.

(chinese-canadian) has a refreshing view of why war in Iraq is a good idea for Iraq and for other countries in the area. Removing Saddam and allowing Iraq's citizens a chance to rebuild their country in a democratic manner MAY spur other countries in the region to take action on their own to move toward more democratic forms of government.

I don't know how old Ted is ... but ... he sure has some kind of a skewed view of the world. Black isn't black and white isn't white ... what else can could explain some of his posts.
March 4th, 2006  
Ted
 
 
Wow..... this turned into a cute exchange of words guys! Where do I start to explain the obvious storyline that some are missing. I'll just do it step by step so that you'll at least get what I mean, because understanding me won't happen very quick.

The initial question was "why do I support the Iraqi war". Chinese-Canadian and Phoenix named their motives for supporting this war. (And yes, you are all right: I don't support this war. And seeing how things are going, my scepsis wasn't wrong.)

Quote:
cuz people there are disconnected and isolated from the civlized world

They are kept uneducated, kept in darkness, cut off from internet and foreign source of information,

How do we open up their society? connect them into our world?

or in some occasion through force to liberate them from dictators.

It is "a moral obligation and an ethical duty" to assist those who need the assistance and if the free world doesn't live up to its obligations and promises,
All these reasons were used in the past for sweet talking the colonial monster that Europe created. And no PJ24, I am not saying that the Iraqi war is some colonial dream the US is fulfilling. So:

Quote:
How do you figure colonialism is at play in Iraq?


I don't think colonialism is at play at all! I am just saying that the motives C-C and Phoenix were giving are the same motives the Europeans gave over 400 years ago.

Alright on the the next:

Quote:
...well wait if they wern't overthrown by revolutions and they where the two worst rulers of the 20th century then... well that means that... uh... they where actually good rulers, yeah! That must be it!
You do know that the communists came into power via a revolution right? And which element is missing in both examples? Time..... given time both would have been driven out. (Although unproveable and speculative on my side both nations had a tradition of revolution. Beria was already plotting agianst Stalin and Von Stauffenberg plotted unsuccesfully against Hitler) The fact that they were overthrown by a revolution doesn't make them "good rulers"..... but you certainly lost me in this train of thought.

And last but not least! First of all Chief, age is not related to wisdom. I have seen too many "unwise" old men who have never experienced a hard day in their life. And I have known kids too old for their age before they were 15. I am 34, seen a lot of the world, well educated and brains are not too bad either. My skewed vision of the world is probably as twisted as your skewed vision is in my opinion. The fact that we disagree makes eachother vision skewed, but not inexplicable. The fact that I read your posts with interests and take your opinion at face value, and you can't see the value in mine, says more about you then about me.

I know black is black and white is white. That is why I have such a hard time with America's inconsistency. Terrorist regimes are bad and we need to spread our superior culture and political system over the world! Where are you in ...say: Sudan, Somalia, Liberia, Nepal and all the predator states in the world that repress their people day in day out unhampered? I'll recant all my bad words about this policy when I see the US doing their "world improvement" worldwide!

So I hoped you all enjoyed my European view on this matter and I am looking forward to your reply's.
--
Boots
March 4th, 2006  
phoenix80
 
 
you think you are NOT wrong because your anti-Bush media have made you think that there is a big mess in Iraq and it is all America's fault

But well, I doubt you wake up to the reality and realize how well things may have gone since the Saddam regime was ousted.
March 4th, 2006  
Missileer
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted
And last but not least! First of all Chief, age is not related to wisdom. I have seen too many "unwise" old men who have never experienced a hard day in their life. And I have known kids too old for their age before they were 15. I am 34, seen a lot of the world, well educated and brains are not too bad either.
And therein lies one of the problems I have with your view that age doesn't equal experience. You may have seen the scenario you created of unwise elders, as well as kids who go through life everyday and survive by living as grownups. Prostituting themselves and fighting for guerillas who have no cause except killing. You use that word "wisdom" as if it's a rite of passage if you live long enough. What Chief was alluding to, if I understand correctly, was that with age, if one is normal, comes the experiencing of life in the real world and coming away a little "wiser" than you were the day before. That is the type of wisdom that one doesn't get from between the binders of books no matter how informative they are. I'm glad that you have gleaned so much knowledge from an education and were able to understand life simply by touring the world but forgive me for my doubts that knowledge is and never has been wisdom.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted
I know black is black and white is white. That is why I have such a hard time with America's inconsistency. Terrorist regimes are bad and we need to spread our superior culture and political system over the world! Where are you in ...say: Sudan, Somalia, Liberia, Nepal and all the predator states in the world that repress their people day in day out unhampered? I'll recant all my bad words about this policy when I see the US doing their "world improvement" worldwide!
I'll try to "unramble" the rest of this but I doubt that it'll have a lot of impact on anyone who has already labeled America's policies as inconsistant. Advocating the spread of democracy is not inconsistant and that is exactly what the US and it's allies have been doing, as far as I know, we haven't veered into any other path than what we stated we would follow. Get out your dusty World globe and take a look at all the countries that you named and claimed that we're ignoring. Pretty big area isn't it? A little help in the spreading of democracy sure would come in handy. We can sit and wring our hands and weep for the child soldiers, or we can pick a country, pick up our gear and go help, but I can tell you that ignoring problems like theirs will not stop one murder and one country can't solve the rest of the of the world's problems without help of those with the conviction to do so. Our culture and political system may not be the best, but it certainly will come in a close second.
March 4th, 2006  
PJ24
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted
And no PJ24, I am not saying that the Iraqi war is some colonial dream the US is fulfilling. So:

I don't think colonialism is at play at all! I am just saying that the motives C-C and Phoenix were giving are the same motives the Europeans gave over 400 years ago.
Thanks for clearing that up!

Quote:
Where are you in ...say: Sudan, Somalia, Liberia, Nepal and all the predator states in the world that repress their people day in day out unhampered? I'll recant all my bad words about this policy when I see the US doing their "world improvement" worldwide!
Somalia? Check! Liberia? Check! Sudan? The US is talking the political angle on that one at this time. Then there is the ton of aid money that leaves the US every year. I see your point, but it also isn't fair to say the US hasn't bled to help some of these guys before.

I don't think Ted is some far left European radical. I disagree with a lot of his viewpoints (and agree with some), but he always seems to take the time to read what people post and respond with well thought out replies, even if they are from the other side of the fence. I'm not sure why his age, or any personal details about him should come into the mix, but that's just me.

I don't think the decision to go into Iraq had anything to do with moral obligations or a sense of ethical duty. It was a strategic move, in my opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chief Bones
Removing Saddam and allowing Iraq's citizens a chance to rebuild their country in a democratic manner MAY spur other countries in the region to take action on their own to move toward more democratic forms of government.
Nail on the head. We need friendly governments in the Middle East, we also need them to be less fanatical. Turn one, you can put the pressure on the others to do the same.

The moral and ethical squishy feelings that come from liberating these guys are a side-effect.
March 4th, 2006  
chinese-canadian
 
en..guys, attacking the idea not the person
"it is strictly business,nothing personal"

Ted, I got to disagree with your belief of spreading democracy is "colonism"

The purpose of going into Middle-east is, in my opinion, to let Arabians create their own democratic government. This process may be long and costly, but it is so far the only solution i can think of to make the Arabian societies less extreme and more open, and to make Arabian people connected with the rest of the world.

Iraq is not like China, which has opened up it self, or not like India, which has transformed itself to a democracy.
The extreme religious elements in the ruling system of these Middle east states require some kind of FORCE to finally change them.

That is my point of view and I respect Ted's views, which are also well-explained.
March 6th, 2006  
Ted
 
 
Quote:
Advocating the spread of democracy is not inconsistant and that is exactly what the US and it's allies have been doing, as far as I know, we haven't veered into any other path than what we stated we would follow.
I agree with you that America has always advocated the spreading of democracy. They have been doing this for many many years and they are indeed very consistent in this. But I was criticizing their choice when to spring into action.
Advocating democracy is done on a consistent basis, but also the easiest of the two. Sending in the military is done on a way less consistent basis and often "America's best interests" are the foundation of this choice. So Missileer, I agree with your point, but that was not what I was aiming at.

Quote:
Ted, I got to disagree with your belief of spreading democracy is "colonism"
Once again C-C, spreading democracy isn't colonialism. I was merely stating that the reasons given to go to Iraq were very much the same as the reasons the Europeans to explain colonialism. This doesn't equal eachother, but the motives look very alike. They defended the reasons for a nation to act in it's best interests. After that these motives were said so that their role seemed noble.

And finally on last note on the age-wisdom issue. Age and wisdom usually do go hand in hand. But age does not guarantee wisdom. Secondly wisdom is picked up along the way but only by people who keep their eyes open, use their brains and able to disscern the facts in many events. Knowledge gives the person a broader basis and ability to place the facts in a frame-work. Knowledge does not make one wise, but it sure helps a bit. The way I interpreted Chief remark was that my words were "rambling" so that I must be a kid. It made me a bit itchy, just like your remark that wisdom comes from "life in the real world". Are you suggesting that because we have a different view I live in fairy-land? My world, however different from yours, is my real world. Wisdom to me is also the capability to accept a differtent view. I take the time to understand other people's view and when I don't understand them I try harder. I rarely qualify them as "things that need unrambling". I don't know if I am wise, but I know I try!
March 7th, 2006  
Doc.S
 
Quote:
I would like to expect an answer that made some kind of sense even if it was a little weird. I realize that Europeans have a strange sense of being the center of the universe and view every other country as being bourgeois. I guess it's reasonable to assume that all the other leaders are perfect little angels based upon the fact that Hitler, Mussolini and Stalin were completely ignored by almost every European country until they invaded their neighbors - it's also a moot point ... but ... some of these same countries also deny that over six million Jews were exterminated by the Nazis.
Red line - This will happen again within my own lifetime, even if the treats looks different from the old good Hitler, Mussolini and Stalin times, Europe will not awake before they have a "modified SCUD missile" in their ass with a message - Thank you for your hospitality Europe, and if this dont happen, I will take my hunting knife and cut my own balls off.



Doc.S
March 8th, 2006  
deerslayer
 
 
You know, all the suppression of edcuation in the MidEast is funny when you consider that "Taliban", or rather the root "Talib" means "educated one"

Much of what we see boils down to a fundamentalist fear of the modern, and an insistence upon not just the older ways but the older status quo. You can keep the old thought system to a greater or lesser extent and still toss the SQ. Moderate Islamics see that, but every time you turn around another one has nine bullet holes in his body because of the fundamentalists hellbent for the SQ.

Sure, develop democracy in the middle east, but you'll have a helluva time when Islam is as much of a political system as it is a religion. I had a very involved discussion on this matter just a few hours ago.