This is why I support CCW

[Donkey]

One of the problem with guns in crime is their simplicity. To commit a murder its the easiest tool to use, just point and shoot. Then Repeat.

A bomb does require technically expertise, its not extremely complicated, but you need to know the ingredients, the correct measurements, and how to assemble it with with blowing yourself up in the process.

Yup suicide bombers are def experts...You forget these people are DETERMINED Cho was determined, he was going to do this no matter what...

Just Google it up buddy...

So this farmer in china I'm sure was an expert in bomb making:
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/afp/20070417/twl-china-farm-land-blast-ef7dd21.html

It really is not that hard to obtain the information and materials...

Timothy Mcveigh was an expert too I bet, wrong.

 

[mmarsh]

Yup suicide bombers are def experts...You forget these people are DETERMINED Cho was determined, he was going to do this no matter what...

Just Google it up buddy...

So this farmer in china I'm sure was an expert in bomb making:
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/afp/20070417/twl-china-farm-land-blast-ef7dd21.html

It really is not that hard to obtain the information and materials...

Timothy Mcveigh was an expert too I bet, wrong.

----------------

You're misquoting me. I never said it was impossible I said it was more difficult because it does require certain knowledge. Why do you think people mass killers prefer to use guns? Is it not that they are Easy to get and easier to use. You cannot deny that, its easier for a beginner to use a gun, than it is to build a bomb.

Most people do not take the time to look up bomb receipes.

You mentioned McVeigh, since McVeigh was in the military and served in the Gulf War that seems a very logical place for him to pick up explosives training no?

 

[Donkey]

whatever buddy

School shooters are not people that just snap and go buy a gun and decide to shoot up a place...These people plan for long times if you don't believe me read this...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18175525/

So no matter what he was going to do something that left his mark, made others suffer how he felt he did, and finally ease his pain by killing himself...

 

[Marinerhodes]

As near as I recollect, the student involved was not a criminal prior to the event. I'll stand corrected if I'm wrong.

You are quite right, he probably wouldn't have killed as many, but wild firing by the other students involved may have killed a lot more. Remember, even people who are trained for this type of thing get flustered under the pressure of being shot at, a group of armed students would be at least as dangerous as the attacker, probably a lot worse.

I never said "no matter what" I just said that it would have greater potential for serious harm to others, than the alternative.

Anyway, as I said to the poster above, it ain't my country, I don't really give a :cens:. It's just that I hate to see a group of people who enjoy using firearms put their own heads in the noose. You feel perfectly free to take your country back to the mentality of the wild west. I'll just stand back and watch from a safe distance.

Ok let me state then that ". . . criminals and would be criminals . . . ". Anything else I can clarify? I don't think it takes a genius to put together the logic that follows if a person legally purchases a firearm for criminal intent that he is soon to be a criminal.

May have, might have, should have, would have, could have. We can play the "what if" game all day. My point, and other's, remains that this kind of thing could have been less lethal had someone (teacher or student) been armed and willing to act. Period, Dot, End of Story.

You may not have said "no matter what" but at times you, and others, on this forum have implied it with your opinions on the subject of gun control.

As for referring to the "mentality of the wild west" that is just silly.

I mean geez, how many people do you know nowadays that tip their hat to a lady and call them ma'am.

How many kids do you know that actually respect someone just because they are an adult that is not their parent.

How many people do you know that give one rat's arse about a stranger in need?

Used to be that "light and set" was a common phrase when a stranger came to your house/campfire. Nowadays it is "who are you and what do you want". Mentality of the Wild West indeed.

One last comment for you:

True it is my country. So if you indeed don't "give a :cens:" why are you even commenting in this thread on these issues?

On another note:

I believe Campus Security was reacting to the call on the other side of the campus...you know...where the shootings started. As for why it took hours to respond..who knows. Don't question the man on the ground until you have all the facts, and something tells me that no one on this forum has all the facts. (somehow I believe I have said something very similar to this in other posts).

Kneejerk reactions have a tendency to leave your foot in your mouth.

These are of course my opinions and observations. This freedom of speech was given to me by my relatives and other men and women who were armed against need (wonder where that would apply here. . ) that stood ready to defend themselves and others when needed (hmm..does it apply here somewhere. . ) and took the time to institute it in the Constitution of the United States of America.

Somehow our freedom of speech (which is in the Bill of Rights. . right?) is linked directly to people being able to bear arms in defense of themselves, others, and their country (which is also in the Bill of Rights. . right?).

Have a good day.

EDIT:

Have a read at this http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/Sections/NEWS/PDFs/061002_Safe_Schools.pdf

 

[Damien435]

Well, being a student myself I can say that I disagree with you on this on, Luis, I would much rather all guns were banned from campus, as they are here, than allow students to be carrying weapons to class. The odds of a shooting at a school are very remote, this is only what, the second such incident in the last thirty years at an American college? The only thing this would do is put more bullets in the air and create the possibility of more people being killed in any potential crossfire because, even though there are more members of the military at Va. Tech than at most colleges, the odds of the person with a concealed weapon having the training to properly use said weapon when put in such a stressful environment is very remote.

 

[Marinerhodes]

Well, being a student myself I can say that I disagree with you on this on, Luis, I would much rather all guns were banned from campus, as they are here, than allow students to be carrying weapons to class. The odds of a shooting at a school are very remote, this is only what, the second such incident in the last thirty years at an American college? The only thing this would do is put more bullets in the air and create the possibility of more people being killed in any potential crossfire because, even though there are more members of the military at Va. Tech than at most colleges, the odds of the person with a concealed weapon having the training to properly use said weapon when put in such a stressful environment is very remote.

Please correct me if I am wrong. To have a CCW permit you have to go through gun safety training and other classes. Not sure on the rules and regs but it seems to me that is the least one must do.

 

[Missileer]

The second ammendment is not going away so we might as well make some adjustments as to how we handle people with mental disorders or any other problem they have with society as a whole. After much gnashing of teeth and tearing of garments by the left, airline pilots are now armed. It had to be done just as we will soon agree that places such as schools, restaurants, subways and other gathering places will have to have reliable people armed. I'm not bothered when I go to Arizona and see guns on the belts of citizens.

 

[Damien435]

Please correct me if I am wrong. To have a CCW permit you have to go through gun safety training and other classes. Not sure on the rules and regs but it seems to me that is the least one must do.

Gun safety is one thing, infantry training is another, that's kind of what I was alluding to, most poeple, even those with a CCW won't have proper training to be able to respond to something like this shooting in a manner that could be considered... productive(?). It's one thing to carry a concealed weapon to fend off the possible mugger, it's a completely separate story if the person firing at you is of the mindset that they are going to die anyways.

 

[senojekips]

You may not have said "no matter what" but at times you, and others, on this forum have implied it with your opinions on the subject of gun control.

If you take the time to read my previous posts on gun control, you will see that I have a very determined pro gun attitude. It's just that I hate to see people self destruct by advocating for stupidity.

As for referring to the "mentality of the wild west" that is just silly.

I mean geez, how many people do you know nowadays that tip their hat to a lady and call them ma'am.

With kids taking firearms to school, you don't think that smacks of the wild west??? Jeee...sus, you want to stand back a bit and take a look at yourself. Over 100 years ago the lawmen of the time realised that there would be less mayhem and murder in their towns if firearms were not allowed to be carried in their towns. And it worked.

How many kids do you know that actually respect someone just because they are an adult that is not their parent.

How many people do you know that give one rat's arse about a stranger in need?

Used to be that "light and set" was a common phrase when a stranger came to your house/campfire. Nowadays it is "who are you and what do you want". Mentality of the Wild West indeed.

An excellent point. It just goes to show, if these people are too immature to realise their social responsibilities and have a few manners, they should never even be considered as safe even own weapons let alone carry them in public.

One last comment for you:

True it is my country. So if you indeed don't "give a :cens:" why are you even commenting in this thread on these issues?

Because as I said in the post prior to my last answer to you, I hate to see others lose their freedoms. I was hoping that some sense would prevail, but that's obviously just ain't gunna happen. The reason I said I don't give a damn was that I personally have nothing to lose, if you wish to destroy your liberties, there's nothing I (or others) can do to help you. Go for it, you lock yourself in "self destruct" mode. We'll stand way, way off to the side and watch the fireworks. It should be "Interesting",.... pity about the death toll though.

 

[mmarsh]

The second ammendment is not going away so we might as well make some adjustments as to how we handle people with mental disorders or any other problem they have with society as a whole. After much gnashing of teeth and tearing of garments by the left, airline pilots are now armed. It had to be done just as we will soon agree that places such as schools, restaurants, subways and other gathering places will have to have reliable people armed. I'm not bothered when I go to Arizona and see guns on the belts of citizens.

First of all, most people on the left supported and the right supported arming pilots. When the bill was proposed, it was the Bush Administration and certain pilots unions that were initially against it. They both later changed their minds.

Secondly, walking around the Arizona countryside is a much different situation that walking around downtown Chicago. People are really stressed in large cities. When I was a teen some jerk pulled a gun on my dad in D.C. because my dad had bumped his van while attempted to park.

As was said earlier, there are some places the guns do not belong. Large Cities, schools, hospitals, office buildings (as we saw last week in Detroit), transportantion systems (including cars, road rage is a frequent cause of shootings) and anywhere else people are likely to stress out.

And we DO have reliable armed people in hospitals, subways, etc. They are called the NYPD, and they are good at what they do. At least, as far as cities go, leave law-enforcement to the pros, not the wannabe vigilantes.

The Countryside I grant you, could be more flexible.

 

[Rob Henderson]

First of all, most people on the left supported and the right supported arming pilots. When the bill was proposed, it was the Bush Administration and certain pilots unions that were initially against it. They both later changed their minds.

Secondly, walking around the Arizona countryside is a much different situation that walking around downtown Chicago. People are really stressed in large cities. When I was a teen some jerk pulled a gun on my dad in D.C. because my dad had bumped his van while attempted to park.

As was said earlier, there are some places the guns do not belong. Large Cities, schools, hospitals, office buildings (as we saw last week in Detroit), transportantion systems (including cars, road rage is a frequent cause of shootings) and anywhere else people are likely to stress out.

And we DO have reliable armed people in hospitals, subways, etc. They are called the NYPD, and they are good at what they do. At least, as far as cities go, leave law-enforcement to the pros, not the wannabe vigilantes.

The Countryside I grant you, could be more flexible.

So answer me this, where was the NYPD at Virginia Tech?

 

[SNowblind]

I'm only 17, but, honestly.....there is no need to allow college KIDS (the 18-22 type) applicable with CCW, I mean, honestly, thats just overkill. Having one armed security guard per 1500 students is perfectly fine, in addition to staff members also. Allowing the students themselves to have CCW is just bullsh***ty.

Perhaps it would be fine for certain kids (ex military, etc) to be allowed for CCW, as the whole "wolf in sheeps clothing" is a great idea.

Seriously, I don't understand why the Fed doesn't allow public school teachers to be armed.

 

[Damien435]

I'm only 17, but, honestly.....there is no need to allow college KIDS (the 18-22 type) applicable with CCW, I mean, honestly, thats just overkill. Having one armed security guard per 1500 students is perfectly fine, in addition to staff members also. Allowing the students themselves to have CCW is just bullsh***ty.

Perhaps it would be fine for certain kids (ex military, etc) to be allowed for CCW, as the whole "wolf in sheeps clothing" is a great idea.

Seriously, I don't understand why the Fed doesn't allow public school teachers to be armed.

Apparently you're too young to realize that your teacher's are far from infallible and someone working sixty hours a week and getting paid only slightly over minimum wage probably isn't the most stable individual. I had a teacher in high school who believes that the pyramids were built by aliens and spent a whole day teaching us the "Flat Earth Theory", would you trust that guy with a gun? I wouldn't.

The best thing the teachers and students can do is remember their drills, lock the doors and hide, no hero b******t because if your family has a choice they will always choose their son or daughter who hid under their desk as opposed to their dead hero.

I don't know if any of you paid attention, but the Va. Tech campus police (unknown to most people UPD is a real police department) appeared to have been on the scene instantly once it was known that this wasn't a domestic issue but a psycho on the loose and unlike the police at Columbine who appeared to be waiting outside the Campus Police, Blacksburg Police and Virginia State police were moving in immediately to put an end to the violence. In some instances we have learned a thing or two from Columbine, but in other areas (such as the media coverage) we have not learned a thing about how to handle these situations.

 

[Gator]

I know plenty of people who own Guns legally who believe in an Invisible Guy who lives in the sky, an Invisible Guy who controls everything in the Heavens and on the Earth, an Invisible Guy who made the Earth in 6 days, the same Invisible Guy who flooded the entire Earth a mere 6000 some odd years ago, telling Noah beforehand to build one Ship and load up 2 of each animal and then load his family aboard, then have to repopulate the entire Earth, I guess just going from continent to continent dropping off Animals and People.

 

[Bugfatty]

I don't know if any of you paid attention, but the Va. Tech campus police (unknown to most people UPD is a real police department) appeared to have been on the scene instantly once it was known that this wasn't a domestic issue but a psycho on the loose and unlike the police at Columbine who appeared to be waiting outside the Campus Police, Blacksburg Police and Virginia State police were moving in immediately to put an end to the violence.

Police arrive at seen and immediately take action? But apparently not before the killer had time to run a few errands, chain some doors shut, kill 30 people and then kill himself.

Call me a hard ass but I think they were tad bit slow in there actions.

 

[Padre]

fftopic:

Gator

 

[5.56X45mm]

Police arrive at seen and immediately take action? But apparently not before the killer had time to run a few errands, chain some doors shut, kill 30 people and then kill himself.

Call me a hard ass but I think they were tad bit slow in there actions.

A police officer or firefighter cannot just run into a gunfight/fire. By doing so they might themselves become injured and that you further compound the situtation. You cannot save people when you yourself need to be saved.

VA Tech PD had no clue where the gunman was, how many of them there were, what did he/they look like, what weapons they had, etc... They took proper action, they advanced using cover and concealment. They searched the area for any possible guman/gunmen (they didn't know it was one gunman). They secured the areas they searched. Once the area was secured, EMT came in and did their job. VA Tech is a huge place, it has over 15,000 students. VA Tech is a city in of itself.

It's not like the movies where the police just jump straight into the firefight.

Also the first shooting was treated as a crime scene. Police believed that it was a murder suicide or a murder. They believed that the gunman had fleed the scene of the crime (which 99% of the time that happens.)

Different PDs have different SOPs. Most PDs in South Florida run off this (including my department).

RAT (Rapid Action Tactics). It's designed for an active shooter like what happened at VA Tech.

Active Shooter - Someone that is shooting at persons. Not a hostage situtation. A mass murder. Shoots are being fired. Actibe Shooter does not happen is a gunman kills someone and then hides.

The arriving officers would go straight towards to shooting and try to disable the shooter. Normal tactics are thrown out of the window. Searching rooms, securing doors, detaining suspects, etc....

RAT works with four officers. The first four at the shooting form a diamond formation. Point officer covers the front, left and right side officer cover the left and right, rear officer covers the rear. Taking stairwells and such are a little tricky. The involves cutting the pie and such. It's hard to discribe. But the officers advance up the stairwell in a way that each officer covers each other.

When RAT goes down a hallway with classes, the formation goes straight in. The point officer is responsible for any and all targets from the front, side and rear the same. Since there is an active shooter all of the classes are bypassed. The formations allows for the officers to cover each other incase a shooter pops out of a class room or comes around the corner of a hallway. The side officers look through the windows of the doorways and such.

The formation can also work with five. The fifth officer would be in the center of the diamond formation cover the top (looking for shooters from a second floor or roof edge.)

If a student or teacher was armed with a firearm by legal means (conceal carry). This situtation wouldn't have turned out the way it did.

 

[Rob Henderson]

And that's the point people fail to see. Just because the law is armed, doesn't mean they have a snowballs chance in hell of stopping the gunman before he has time to kill 33 people.

Law enforcement cannot CANNOT just run into a firefight.

 

[mmarsh]

And that's the point people fail to see. Just because the law is armed, doesn't mean they have a snowballs chance in hell of stopping the gunman before he has time to kill 33 people.

Law enforcement cannot CANNOT just run into a firefight.

That Depends on the Department. In NYC they try to have a cop on every block. Its not always successful (its a Big City) but it close. The cops reaction time can be very fast.

 

[CABAL]

Politicizing this event to a pro-Gun or anti-gun debate is disrespectful to the victims and to the Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University Community. I personally do not like your propaganda posters you have posted at this time, therefore I suggest you to stop.

You can spout your interpretation to the Second Admendment all you want but I personally do not want potential disgruntled youths carrying firearms into class or on campus. It is dangerous and unstable. In doing so, you are maximizing the risks of someone being shot and killed.