Why have all Arab-Israeli wars ended in victory for the latter?
The question is which is stronger?
senojekips
Active member
Or more to the point, which has the backing of the strongest ally.
MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
Hard to say, I would be inclined to place Israel and Egypt on about the same tier but I would not rate the others in the area to highly.
In the past the Arab armies have been typical of the regions thinking (primarily land based conscript armies) better suited to keeping its population in check than engaging an armed, trained enemy.
My father always claimed that Arab armies of the last 60 years have never been good because their motivation for joining was less about defence/duty and more about getting a pair of boots and 3 meals a day.
And leaving those boots in the desert to head off back home for a meal. Times have changed somewhat they tell me.
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MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
Times have changed but attitudes not so much, remember there hasn't been a full fledges Arab/Israeli war in 30 years and that was not quite as one sided as the previous ones.
Lets face it Syria hasn't changed much in 30 years its military is still preoccupied with maintaining the existing regime, Jordan is too small to really be a deciding power in the region so that leaves Egypt which has modernised but is still really about keeping the people under control more than power projection.
On top of this all three countries have large sections of their population who are poorly educated and impoverished and these guys are generally not motivated by patriotism as much as survival.
I feel the reason the Arab nations opposing Israel have done poorly in combat, is usually a few privilege people who run the country and they aren't there for their people. They buy some weapons which look good on paper but, without effective training the weapons are not effective. So having a military that fights effectively is at best... a secondary consideration.
Many Arab nations have fought Israel in many wars but, in none of the wars can one say these countries formed an effective coalition!! The Yum Kippur War is a great example of Egypt and Syria not working together. Jordan stayed out of the conflict entirely.
As I stated in a posting last month, many coups started with the incumbent leader having his palace bombed by the air force of his country, the air force generals were with the challengers for the leadership of the country. So, having an air force that looked good on paper or parades was all that was really desired by the current leaders. (Similar to Saddam's military.)
Other than PRC/North Korea, during the Korean conflict.... I don't know of another military that used Soviet designed weapons the way they were designed to be used!
In that respect, Israel is different in that its military purchases weapons that are effective, use the weapons the way they were designed and, to train the people to operate these to their optimum. The IDF is also one of the top militaries world-wide that continually strives hard to reduce the amount of casualties.
Israel has one of 'the most' effective intelligence services in the world. The Israeli military is also commanded by smart, aggressive and, imaginative leaders.
Many Arab nations have fought Israel in many wars but, in none of the wars can one say these countries formed an effective coalition!! The Yum Kippur War is a great example of Egypt and Syria not working together. Jordan stayed out of the conflict entirely.
As I stated in a posting last month, many coups started with the incumbent leader having his palace bombed by the air force of his country, the air force generals were with the challengers for the leadership of the country. So, having an air force that looked good on paper or parades was all that was really desired by the current leaders. (Similar to Saddam's military.)
Other than PRC/North Korea, during the Korean conflict.... I don't know of another military that used Soviet designed weapons the way they were designed to be used!
In that respect, Israel is different in that its military purchases weapons that are effective, use the weapons the way they were designed and, to train the people to operate these to their optimum. The IDF is also one of the top militaries world-wide that continually strives hard to reduce the amount of casualties.
Israel has one of 'the most' effective intelligence services in the world. The Israeli military is also commanded by smart, aggressive and, imaginative leaders.
mmarsh
Active member
There are several reasons why the Arabs have consequentiality lost, Keep in mind that I am referring is about the 1960s, 1970s, and early 1980s. The present day is much different.
1. Training: Back in the 60s 70s, most Arab soldiers were illiterate goat herding conscripts. IDF was a professionally trained Army. After WWII, there was a large immigration to Israel of European Jewish refugees with combat experience, especially from the USSR but also from other countries as well. The Arabs really didn't benefit from the experiences of WWII
2. Equipment: The Israelis have always been equipped with state of the art weapons first from Britain, then France, then finally the USA. The Arabs have been equipped with WWII cast offs then inferior Soviet weapons.
3. Motivation/Morale: As stated much of the Arab Armies were conscripted into fighting for Dictators. There was little sense of Nationalism or Patriotic fervor. The Israelis always felt they were fighting for survival.
4. Support. The Israelis are not only giving military and financial aid, but also military intelligence by the United States. The USSR while providing *some* assistance to the Arabs never did so to the degree that the US did. The USSR's interest was merely to check Western influence in the Middle East, it was never interested helping the Arabs win. The Middle East was really never a huge interest to the USSR.
As I said though the situation is now changing Turkey and Egypt have now adopted a more professional volunteer military. They have also (along with Jordan, and Saudi Arabia) begun to purchase US and European Arms, and as we have seen most recently the dictators of hold have been overthrown by Democratic and patriotic popular movements.
Israel will always be a regional power, but it wont be the sole power for very long.
1. Training: Back in the 60s 70s, most Arab soldiers were illiterate goat herding conscripts. IDF was a professionally trained Army. After WWII, there was a large immigration to Israel of European Jewish refugees with combat experience, especially from the USSR but also from other countries as well. The Arabs really didn't benefit from the experiences of WWII
2. Equipment: The Israelis have always been equipped with state of the art weapons first from Britain, then France, then finally the USA. The Arabs have been equipped with WWII cast offs then inferior Soviet weapons.
3. Motivation/Morale: As stated much of the Arab Armies were conscripted into fighting for Dictators. There was little sense of Nationalism or Patriotic fervor. The Israelis always felt they were fighting for survival.
4. Support. The Israelis are not only giving military and financial aid, but also military intelligence by the United States. The USSR while providing *some* assistance to the Arabs never did so to the degree that the US did. The USSR's interest was merely to check Western influence in the Middle East, it was never interested helping the Arabs win. The Middle East was really never a huge interest to the USSR.
As I said though the situation is now changing Turkey and Egypt have now adopted a more professional volunteer military. They have also (along with Jordan, and Saudi Arabia) begun to purchase US and European Arms, and as we have seen most recently the dictators of hold have been overthrown by Democratic and patriotic popular movements.
Israel will always be a regional power, but it wont be the sole power for very long.
84RFK
Active member
It doesn't matter, as long as the Arab nations remain a threath against Israel there will be a constant arms-race.
And in the eyes of the people who supply arms, that means buisness.
84RFK
Active member
That's true, few other countries has managed to develop nuclear capacity (more than a few test-bombs) without any (official) supply of technology and hardware...
lvcabbie
Active member
The most important Israeli trait is discipline and leadership!!!!! :rambo:
They train hard and are fighting for the lives of their loved ones. And, they are educated - something the average non-officer Arab lacks.
senojekips
Active member
70% of Israels success lies in having the ongoing financial and military backing of the US.
A good example of what the Egyptians could do with halfway decent weaponry was seen when they overran the Israeli positions and routed their armour with the Sagger missile, back in the Sinai in October 1973. Although the israelis eventually gained the upper hand this attack scared the b'jesus out of them, and led to the Camp David Accords.
Nuclear deterence is not the answer many people think it is against the Arab world, because of a number of reasons that have been pointed out on this forum previously.
A good example of what the Egyptians could do with halfway decent weaponry was seen when they overran the Israeli positions and routed their armour with the Sagger missile, back in the Sinai in October 1973. Although the israelis eventually gained the upper hand this attack scared the b'jesus out of them, and led to the Camp David Accords.
Nuclear deterence is not the answer many people think it is against the Arab world, because of a number of reasons that have been pointed out on this forum previously.
senojekips
Active member
You very conveniently forget to mention that the country actually belongs to, and was promised to the Palestinian people by the British administration in return for their assistance against the Turks in WWI.
It does not, and never has belonged to a group of European refugees whose terrorist actions drove the Brits out in 1947. The IDF harrass, beat, terrorise and murder those people who resist them because they are no more than a continuation of the thugs of the Stern Gang and others.
And before you start,.. by "Palestinians", I mean all those persons who were living in Palestine (including the Jews), prior to the flood of European Zionists.
If you think the Palestinians are wrong in resisting, what would you do if for example, France gave the best part of UK to the starving Somalians and then supported them with huge amounts of money and military aid to kill anyone who resisted?
Other than that, if you are so convinced that the Jewish people deserve their own homeland, why don't you petition your own government to give half of your country to them.
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